To ask how you define 'class'?

[mygrandadsvest]

Someone at work this week described me as "white middle class woman".

I am white and I am a woman but I would never have described myself as middle class. If you'd have asked me Id be working class.

Absolutely not a stealth boast but for context I am in a senior management position married to a lorry driver who earns less than half as much. Both kids in state education, DD1 goes to a local grammar. We own our own home but with a £250k mortgage. I was a teenage mum and got lucky that my mum really helped out with childcare so I could complete a degree whilst working. We both drive 10/11 year old cars and live to our means as things have not always been financially stable. If we didn't work or split up we'd soon be in trouble- that makes us working class right!? I speak 'properly' which I think lulls people into a false perception of my background!

I was almost offended at being described as middle class and not really sure why!

@unmarkedbythat

This illustrates why the old ways of looking at class are so outdated, doesn't it? What do I go by, what I was born into? If so, my parents were definitely born w/c but their jobs mean I was born m/c. How can I be a different social class from my parents? Or did theirs change because they got certain jobs? Even though their politics, accents, identities, pastimes, etc didn't change?

What social class is David Beckham? If the royals were done away with and lost all the money and you saw Louise Windsor working at Aldi, would she be w/c? Am I a different class from my husband? My job puts me in social grade B, his in C2, so what are our children?

Definitely working class.

Janegrey333
Definitely working class.

I'm sorry, I don't know which of the questions in my post you're replying to there.

@unmarkedbythat

Janegrey333 Definitely working class.

I'm sorry, I don't know which of the questions in my post you're replying to there.

David Beckham.

Sorry. The question you asked about David Beckham - for the purpose of illustration!

But people don’t aspire to be working class they do to be middle class as life offers you more choices it’s as simple as that

Not everyone aspires to be 'middle class' whatever that means (no-one can agree).

How does being middle class give people more choices if it's not about money allowing people to afford extra curricular cultural activities?

:)

Me too! I'd definitely say he was WC. But not his DC. Interesting.

I have a WC background as does DH. I work in a service industry, so that puts me as WC, but my wage puts me as Upper working Class. So I don't know!

The whole thing makes no sense - according to MN even proper tory toffs like Jacob Rees Mogg are upper middle class at best....realistically only 7% of children go to private schools so you think that could be a good indicator of being upper class but again, no, apart from some of those attending the famous public schools, most of them are just middle class....basically this means that the "upper class" consist of barely 0.1% of the population which makes it meaningless as a classification.

Then as you have shown the other two categories are mixed between people who are considered by everyone else to meet all the arbitrary middle class markers but for whatever reason consider this to be an extreme insult and insist on referring the their great grandparents who worked down t'mine. Then on the other hand you have people doing traditionally working class jobs but with middle class education and interests. And what about the small proportion who don't work at all and survive on state benefits (through choice or not) - it's a contradiction in terms to say they are working class but how can they be either of the others?

Basically nobody seems to agree with anyone else's definition of class!

I would also add that in the rest of the UK class doesn't seem to be as big a deal as in (some/most?) of England....possibly because in Wales and scotland we have a)fewer rich people anyway and b) no grammar schools and outside of the main cities hardly any private schools so most people are forced to rub along together rather than dividing into these class enclaves at an early age....

Class is a load of outdated nonsense (not having 'class', that will always be en vogue ) but the class system is meaningless now so many WC earn traditionally MC wages.

It ALWAYS used to be about money but now, as WC class folk with traditionally WC professions (builders, plumbers, etc) can earn the same and sometimes more than a GP or a headteacher, affording the well paid WC a 'middle class' lifestyle, ie sending their kids to private schools and drinking expensive Bordeaux, rendering the traditional class system utterly meaningless.

I earn an upper middle class wage as does my DH, we both have what would be considered MC hobbies and interest and you would probably assume that we are MC if you met us and were privy to our lifestyle. However, we didn't go to uni, so perhaps we are WC. Who really cares? Middle class people, that's who!! The class system is obsolete.

I remember watching a documentary and a young single mum on benefits said she was 'middle class', her reasoning was she wasn't 'lower class', didnt work so not 'working class'
To be honest, she hasn't a point.
I think the clsss society scaling is outdated and just clung onto by people who think they're better than most

*she has a point

@Whammyyammy

I remember watching a documentary and a young single mum on benefits said she was 'middle class', her reasoning was she wasn't 'lower class', didnt work so not 'working class' To be honest, she hasn't a point. I think the clsss society scaling is outdated and just clung onto by people who think they're better than most

Was that the John Prescott one? Because if not something almost identical happened in that and his face was a picture, he looked like he didn't know whether he wanted to wince, laugh, cry or give her a lecture on class identity.

@SurreyHillsGirl

Class is a load of outdated nonsense (not having 'class', that will always be en vogue ) but the class system is meaningless now so many WC earn traditionally MC wages.

It ALWAYS used to be about money but now, as WC class folk with traditionally WC professions (builders, plumbers, etc) can earn the same and sometimes more than a GP or a headteacher, affording the well paid WC a 'middle class' lifestyle, ie sending their kids to private schools and drinking expensive Bordeaux, rendering the traditional class system utterly meaningless.

I earn an upper middle class wage as does my DH, we both have what would be considered MC hobbies and interest and you would probably assume that we are MC if you met us and were privy to our lifestyle. However, we didn't go to uni, so perhaps we are WC. Who really cares? Middle class people, that's who!! The class system is obsolete.

“It ALWAYS used to be about money but now, as WC class folk with traditionally WC professions (builders, plumbers, etc) can earn the same and sometimes more than a GP or a headteacher, affording the well paid WC a 'middle class' lifestyle, ie sending their kids to private schools and drinking expensive Bordeaux, rendering the traditional class system utterly meaningless.”

Not really. It’s not about money. The fact that a GP and a headteacher are definitely highly educated, that their occupations carry high status and that they earn a salary as opposed to a “wage”, marks them as above the builders, plumbers and so on.

Sorry. The following is my response. (Why is this site so awkward?)

Not really. It’s not about money. The fact that a GP and a headteacher are definitely highly educated, that their occupations carry high status and that they earn a salary as opposed to a “wage”, marks them as above the builders, plumbers and so on.

@BarbaraofSeville

Put it this way are you alowed in your workers union

There are unions that are for professionals, civil servants, even doctors (the British Medical Association is a trade union for doctors). They aren't all for factory workers.

Anyway, there's so much overlap and inconsistency, that it's meaningless.

Agreed.

I think there has been a class shift in recent years. Years ago, professional people who attended university were thought of as middle class - doctors, lawyers etc. A lot of people now with professional careers who attended further education think of themselves as middle class but they're not. They're the new working class. If you're living month to month to pay a mortgage, you're working class.

The middle class have mortgages too and would not think of themselves as working class!!

hasnt the situation also been complicated in recent years by a decade of austerity? for example, in London - doctors, civil servants, academics and even teachers used to be seen as having a good wage, but this has been eroded in recent years. Public sector workers all used to be middle class - but by now they are quite cash poor in London terms. Whereas jobs such as plumbers etc can actually earn a lot more.

I don't think class definitions can possibly be applied to today's society. I know people who call themselves working class who made stacks of cash and now live in million pound houses who still think they are working class.

I came from a working class Father who made money so I was middle class, except that I now do a manual trade and live in a very working class area and have fuck all money. If class still existed then I would have come from working class, been middle class and worked my way back to working class again

The only accurate way to categorise is by money and assets.

@Janegrey333

Sorry. The following is my response. (Why is this site so awkward?)

Not really. It’s not about money. The fact that a GP and a headteacher are definitely highly educated, that their occupations carry high status and that they earn a salary as opposed to a “wage”, marks them as above the builders, plumbers and so on.

You are confusing social classes from status groups, social class historically was always based upon economic status, while your status in society could be constituted by evaluations of prestige of an occupation.

The landed gentry and aristocracy didn't used to work, so there is the flaw in your argument.

“The landed gentry and aristocracy didn't used to work, so there is the flaw in your argument.”

GPs and headteachers were / are middle class whichever era you are referring to. It’s revealing that you refer to a “wage” to describe what you earn...

I never would because I earn a salary.

@SurreyHillsGirl

Class is a load of outdated nonsense (not having 'class', that will always be en vogue ) but the class system is meaningless now so many WC earn traditionally MC wages.

It ALWAYS used to be about money but now, as WC class folk with traditionally WC professions (builders, plumbers, etc) can earn the same and sometimes more than a GP or a headteacher, affording the well paid WC a 'middle class' lifestyle, ie sending their kids to private schools and drinking expensive Bordeaux, rendering the traditional class system utterly meaningless.

I earn an upper middle class wage as does my DH, we both have what would be considered MC hobbies and interest and you would probably assume that we are MC if you met us and were privy to our lifestyle. However, we didn't go to uni, so perhaps we are WC. Who really cares? Middle class people, that's who!! The class system is obsolete.

“However, we didn't go to uni, so perhaps we are WC.”

Ah.

@newyearnoeu my friend went to private school in Monmouth so not a big city - I would say she is from a much more MC family than me even though I am from England. But she is probably less bothered about class.

[quote PattyPan]@newyearnoeu my friend went to private school in Monmouth so not a big city - I would say she is from a much more MC family than me even though I am from England. But she is probably less bothered about class.[/quote]
Haberdashers? Yeah to be honest I considered clarifying that as one exception but a) Monmouth is basically considered to be English by lots of Welsh people (because for 100s of years it pretty much was, plus it's about 1.5 miles from the border) and b) it's less than half an hour from both Newport and Hereford so is practically 'in the city' if you compare to the wilds of Powys!

According to www.schoolsearch.co.uk/search/All+Senior+All+Wales/
there are 20 private senior schools in the whole of Wales, six of which are in Cardiff/Penarth and another three in Monmouth/Newport, so nearly half within 30 miles of each other along the most populated area of SW, so probably would have been better if I'd explained it like that rather than 'in the cities.'

Out of 22 counties only 10 have any private schools at all (www.isc.co.uk/schools/wales/) and like I said no grammars, so that's 12 counties with only comprehensive state school provision (although children can of course travel outside their county!).
Compared to somewhere like Kent which has more than 30 grammars and according to google 72 private schools!