To not know where to start with choosing secondary schools?!!

[Clueless2000]

Well, yes, is the answer really, seeing as the deadline is about a month away!

I'm in Bexley, DD is doing the 11+ (Bexley & Kent). They"ve moved the date of the tests so we have to apply for schools before we know their results. And we can't view any schools in person.So stress levels are high!

I just don't know where to start when comparing schools. Is the progress 8 the most important thing to consider? Or the number of kids who score above a 5 in A levels??

Also, I keep hearing people refer to comprehensives and secondaries as two different types of schools - are they?? How?? And how do I know which is which?? Heeeeelp!!!

Anyone?

We scoured the progress 8 scores, ofsted, local Facebook gossip, academic results etc. This helped us cut the shortlist down.

Then we attended all the open evenings (I guess virtual this year) to get a feel for the head, ethos, pastoral support etc. It was obvious from the tours which schools were only interested in academic results and which ones mentioned 'fun' or 'enjoyment' when referring to learning.

Also consider travel options - walk, bus, car etc.

You may have other criteria to consider such as SEN, whether your child makes new friends easily (if they end up
at a school where they don't know anyone), specialist sports schools etc.

I would suggest you start by looking at the admissions criteria, understanding them and working out which schools are actually a realistic possibility for your children.

Sorry if that sounds patronising but so much heartache would be avoided each year if everyone did this.

If you are in a grammar area where eg 20%(?) attend grammar schools like Kent, then you have grammar schools and 'comprehensives' which are like proper comprehensives without the top set. They are all secondary schools (which just means 11-16/18).

Progress 8 is a better measure than % passes as it measures the progress, so schools with more lower attainers but which still make good progress show up well.

You can look on the DeptofEducation website and look at progress 8 by prior Higher/Mid/Low attainment (basically how well they did in y6 SATs) so you can tell whether a school is great with bright ones but rubbish with strugglers, or whatever.

Some areas though are theoretically in grammar areas but are actually quite far away from any grammar so the school might be more like a true comprehensive (ie still include a lot of 'top set' children).

You need to look at

• likelihood of being offered a place (11+, distance etc)
• ofsted / progress 8 etc
• ethos of school (pushy, relaxed, results focussed, whole child etc etc)
• extra curricular
• travel time
• SEN / pastoral provision
• subject specific if you have something you feel strongly about (eg offering triple science, 2 MFL, range of creative subjects etc)

Go onto the MN Secondary board, lots of expertise there.

Don't look at A level results, look at GCSE results. There will be admission criteria to be allowed to stay for A levels, some schools set these very high, which of course will mean their A level results are better too.

Whatever you do, make sure you have a 'banker' on the list. This will be a non selective near to you that you are more or less guaranteed a place at. Better a poor school near to you than a poor school 3 bus rides away.

Thank you, thank you! Great advice here!
Don't worry, I had already started looking at admissions criteria - but I don't feel patronised by anyone suggesting that! It's just good to get an idea of what everyone thinks is the most useful way to judge a school, particularly when we can't see any in person.

Ok, more questions, if I may, please. I'm looking on the DFE website and comparing schools. I don't really understand what the English Baccaluareate is? It gives you a percentage for each school for how many kids entered the EBacc?

Am I just a bit thick or is this really quite complicated??!

EBacc is a measure of what % enter or achieve Maths, English, Science History or Geography and a Foreign Language.

10 years or so back, schools were bumping themselves up league tables by entering kids for 'easier' qualifications and there were concerns that not enough kids were getting a well rounded academic education, hence the measure.

However different schools have very different attitudes. In a grammar school you might expect 99% capable of taking EBacc, but some might mandate it and other leave it optional. e.g. RE isn't included in the humanities for EBacc, or a child might want to cover more science / practical and not do a language.

You don't 'need# Ebacc for anything and it is a virtual thing anyway as you don't even get a certificate for it.

I'd look at % passing English & Maths, and then progress8 over EBacc personally.

I don't know those specific schools but I do know that some Grammar schools ignore the Ebacc. They might enter the top sets early for Maths for example and then do further maths GCSE in yr 11, which at least previously would have not shown as a pass. They might let children decide to drop History and Geography and do three arts subjects or three languages instead. In my knowledge of grammars although many will take the Ebacc, they can be more flexible because they don't care as much about league tables because children will flock to get in regardless.

Ok, so Ebacc isn't an actual qualification as such, it's just all those GCSE subjects grouped together - the traditional core subjects.

So I've just looked at a school with an Ebacc score of 40% - so that means 40% of kids took ALL those qualifications at GCSE. So does that mean 60% didn't take ALL those subjects or that 60% took some of them but not all? Do I assume that 40% is a pretty crap score??

@TW2013 - sorry, I don't understand what you mean when you say 'They might enter the top sets early for Maths for example and then do further maths GCSE in yr 11, which at least previously would have not shown as a pass.'

I found talking to people really helpful. We did all the visits but speaking to people whose kids went to the schools (and whose opinions I rated) was useful. Especially if your child has specific needs.

Progress 8 is a better measure than % passes as it measures the progress, so schools with more lower attainers but which still make good progress show up well.

I take this with a pinch of salt. It's good for maths and English because all students take those subjects but it is skewed towards science subjects. This means one of two things for a chid who excels in art, drama and music. Either the school limits the child to only taking 1 'art' subject, even though they would get better grades with a free choice, or the school allows a better choice but scores lower on the progress 8.

So I've just looked at a school with an Ebacc score of 40% - so that means 40% of kids took ALL those qualifications at GCSE.

It means 40% achieved in all those subjects, other may have been entered but not passed or were not entered. It's also only of those who took the GCSE at that sitting, so if you pass one of the core subjects a year early then it doesn't count for the school. |This is why some schools do additional maths a year early for the top group so that when the students take GCSE maths it 'counts'.

Please please please look at the journeys and routes your DD will have to undertake for each of your choices - personally I would not put my child through a +1 hour journey each way just for the sake of being at a grammar school. That's a lot of commuting on top of homework and extracurricular activities. Don't be one of those families who go through the 11+ process only to find that there's no practicable way of getting to and from school when term starts...(and then asking random internet strangers for car shares.)

Since a MFL at GCSE level is no longer compulsory, many schools no longer qualify for the EBacc measurement or will have a low score. How important is it for you and your DD, to study a MFL?

As your DD is sitting the 11+, have you looked at the elevenplus form?

OP, when people appear to be talking about comprehensives and secondaries as different things, I suspect that by 'secondaries' they don't mean 'secondary schools' (which refers to any school for that age group), but 'secondary moderns', which is (or was) the name for the schools you go to in a grammar school area if you don't pass the 11 or 12 plus.

It's actually pretty difficult to get the measure of how good a school is, unless you're really in the know. Nobody can agree which (if any) of the various percentages and measurements really matter or are even accurate. Talking to the school itself isn't that helpful because they will inevitably put a fair bit of spin on what they tell you. I'd look at the Ofsted report, but mainly with a view to gauging what behaviour is like. Otherwise, ask around and see what their reputations are like.

Thank you all.

Yes, journey is definitely a consideration. I've already discounted schools (grammar and non) because of the journey.

@DoraemonDingDong - genuine question! - why would a student pass a GCSE a year early? I mean, I get there are some super bright kids out there but surely that's not going to be a common occurrence, is it? RE the 11+ forums, I find they can be a bit of a rabbit hole!!

@lazylinguist - I don't understand the difference between secondary and secondary modern and comprehensive??

And you're right about the fact that 'nobody can agree' - this is exactly what I mean - there are so many measurements to consider and everyone has a take on what each of them really tells you - that's what makes this so hard! How have you lot all got it so together?!? :)

Secondary: Any 11-16/18 school. Includes Grammar, Comp, etc etc

Comprehensive. A non selective school in a non selective area (eg Hants). Takes the very brightest and the least bright.

'Secondary modern' Will be badged generally as a Comprehensive, as willing to take anyone, but in a grammar region such as Kent will not actually have the 20% brightest as they will have been skimmed off to Grammar. In the old days Secondary moderns had a less academic, more practical offer. It can be a problem if your child has a spiky profile (eg excellent at maths but poor at English) as they may not have 'peers' in their maths class. Also school may be less likely to offer triple science or 2 MFL at GCSE.

Yes as sashh says if you take Maths GCSE in yr 10 (which many at a grammar school are capable of) then it is not counted as the same sitting as the other nine subjects that you take along with Further Maths in yr11. As far as the Ebacc is concerned you have failed to complete the core subjects in one sitting. Likewise if you don't take History or Geography then you will fail the Ebacc even though that child would be more than capable of passing either GCSE but they just preferred RS and Music.

I might ask questions about an Ebacc of 40% but as long as the GCSEs etc are good, which you would hope they would be at a grammar school, I would probably find that that school has just decided not to play the Ebacc game because they don't have to and instead let their students have a little more freedom to pursue their interests.

Obviously for a comp it might be professional suicide to not care about Ebacc scores but for an over subscribed grammar they might think it is preferable for a child to follow their passions of RS, Music, Art, German, Latin, English, Maths and three sciences and get 9s in all of them rather than make them take History or Geography and drop down to a 7 in that because they have no interest in it. The school have their eyes on the University offers and the University (generally) won't care which GCSEs were sat if not relevant to the degree, just what the grades are.

A lot of the more academic shools will get their most able maths pupils to take GCSE maths a year early, and will then spend the Year 11 maths classes studying for GCSE further maths which will give them a stronger foundation for A-level maths.

In all honesty start by looking at your local school - it's the school that you are most likely to get a place in and if it's decent why go through the stress and potential disappointment of looking elsewhere. I've never lived in a grammar school area

They may put the top maths set in a year early because otherwise the most able mathematicians might get bored. Part of signing up for a grammar school is a faster pace. An able mathematician might sit GCSE maths in yr10, Further maths GCSE in yr11 then Maths and Further Maths A level. Wouldn't be my idea of a fun adolescence but as you probably know with a very able child part of the difficulty is keeping them challenged. Also Further Maths GCSE might be an 11th subject and it is going to lead to a more packed exam timetable if they are all taken in yr11. These are children who will probably all get 9s in yr10 so it is not worth holding them back a year for a box ticking exercise.

Thank you all.

Ok, I get the comp/secondary modern thing - thank you!

The 40% score I was talking about was for our local non selective. I'm trying to convince myself that it'd be a perfectly good option if DD was to not pass the 11+.

Don't worry though if your dd doesn't love maths. Although the top set might be doing further maths, lower sets will be going at a slower pace and aiming still for 7-9 grades at GCSE.

40% Ebacc is a fine score for a non selective in a grammar area.

She doesn't love maths so I'm glad you said that!!

How did she do