To apply for a school we have almost no chance of getting into?

[Bluebellwoodsinjune]

Our local secondary is a bit so-so - it's our catchment school and should - fingers crossed - be fine, but there's a better one (according to Ofsted, and based on local views) fairly nearby... it's generally oversubscribed and I think based on location, previous years etc we have very little chance of getting in. I'm wondering if -

a) there's any point getting my DD's hopes up about this school, going on virtual tours etc if there's almost no chance (she is expecting to go to local one currently and most friends will go there, but haven't discussed it much yet)
b) there's any point applying on the very small chance that numbers will be different this year and we get a place?

I'd say speak to her and tell her exactly what you have wrote her. I'm sure by the age she is she is able to have input and understanding. I know I did when secondary schools were chosen . Explain if she didn't get in it wasnt her it was simply the street you live in.

Dont make it sound like the catchment one is rubbish though just different

No harm in applying, as long as you also apply for the safe option where you’re likely to get a place (put them in genuine order of preference on the form. How you rank them only makes a difference if you’re eligible for more than one school, then you get the one you ranked higher)

There is nothing to lose by applying.
You never know - you might get a place.
And if you apply with this school top n your list you will be on the waiting list for any places that come up after the acceptance day. The list doesn't re-open for other people / late applications etc until after the first round.

You can stay in the waiting list for as long as you like, even after term has started - places come up at the last minute after people move house / decline a place because they went private etc.

Plus if you don't apply you can't appeal.
Is there anything about the further away school that suits your Dd's needs and interests in a way that the nearest school doesn't?

e.g Is she fluent in a language that isn't taught at GCSE at the local school? Is she a keen extra-curricular dancer and the other school has active dance clubs and offers GCSE Dance? Sports? etc. This could form the basis for an appeal.

Just don't rubbish the local school.

The published admissions distances are based on the offers made on allocation day, not the eventual intake after waiting list places have been allocated.

You won't lose out on a chance at your local school by putting the further away / over-subscribed one first on your list. The 'Equal Preference' system ensures that.

No harm in applying but if it was me I'd play it down a lot to dd, just present it as another possible if unlikely option, obviously don't say one is better than the other etc.

Ist them both. Just present it as a something you have to do - look at all the schools.
What are you basing your decision on tho. How old is Ofsted? Things change.
I say this quite often on these threads but request the Governor meeting minutes for last year. It will tell you a lot about how school is run and where it's going.

Has anything changed to suggest you might be in with a chance this year?

Our "just a bit too far" school had a new wing built and could take an additional 30 kids. So, even though we'd been too far in previous years, we were within distance this time.

But if yours hasn't had any major changes the numbers are unlikely to be different to previous years. How much of a chance do you have? Look at the "furthest distance offered." If it's quite close to where you are, then you might have a chance. If they always run out of places at the 800 metres mark and you live 3 miles away, probably not.

Definitely put it down.
Fill all your allocated choices. If you don't, and by some freak of catchment or sibling rule your catchment school is oversubscribed,then you will be allocated whichever school on your preferences that has a space available.
If you haven't put down a named school for all your choice slots, then you will be allocated whatever school has a space, even if it's the other side of the county!

It's really, really important to put a school in each choice box

Incidentally, I had a poor preconception about our closest secondary. The tour completely changed my mind, so I do think it's worth doing them if you can.

For the last year, DD1 has been adamant she wanted to go the grammar school in the neighbouring county. As we are out of catchment we told her that, even if she passed the 11+, there was only a very slim chance of her getting in as they generally admit about a handful of pupils each year from outside the catchment area. Luckily she’s changed her mind now and wants to go to the local secondary round the corner, but if she hadn’t we would have applied to the grammar school and just hoped for the best - after all, what have you got to lose?

As above, it’s not going to hurt but as a family don’t get your hopes up. Have you checked if there are any other routes into this school you can explore? Some specialist schools offer places to DC with talents in certain areas. DD got into an out of area good school by these means.

It doesn’t sound like the local school is awful, just not your first choice!

Put it down first choice, explain it is on the off chance.
Say to your DD that 'it might suit you better' but do not under any circumstances disparage the school you are likely to get.

Thanks all - I think we'll have a chat with DD and explain that we can apply but she's not that likely to get in... she may not want to apply for the unlikely school anyway but worth exploring the option.

The only chance we might have on appeal would be with regards to SEN (without an EHCP), which is why I'm keen on this (non local) school overall - it has a better reputation for SEN.

But I've heard most appeals based on SEN get turned down, as all schools are meant to be able to meet these needs?

And yes local school is not terrible by any means and has advantages - much of her primary will go there, it's walking distance and smaller than the other school.

Just bumping this to see if anyone has any insight re SEN appeals... although had a chat with DD this afternoon and she’s pretty adamant she wants to go to the local school so that may be that!

I think it will very much depend on the SEN.

All schools are meant to be able to cope with mild dyslexia, slow processing, dyspraxia etc, basically anything 'standard' that doesn't mean massive adjustments or a special school.

However if it is something more unusual, or requires specialist equipment that one school has experience in, or a better layout of the school or something that may be more arguable?

(I feel that some schools are quite happy with a poor reputation for SEN is it discourages applications from pupils who might then use up time and resources. Perhaps I'm cynical.)

Ds2's friend was the only one without a sibling already attending to get into the "unlikely" school in our area.He did that on the strength of his EHCP (for asd) which specified the school in question.

Thanks both, I think our chances are low as DD doesn’t have an echp and her SEN falls into the ‘standard’ category I think...

Does the school admissions policy give priority to SEN?

If so, apply from the outset on SEN grounds - it won’t affect your chances of admission on distance.

State what it is about the school that makes it THE school for your Dd, and attach a letter from a health care professional saying ‘Dd has this condition and in my opinion needs to attend xx school because if the provision of Xyz. If she does not have access to xyz she will be significantly disadvantaged “.

It may or may not work, but gives you a stronger basis for appeal later in the process than suddenly conjoining up SEN reasons.

Be mindful that if you do get allocated that school on Mar 1st you can’t change your mind and go to your nearest school without going in the waiting list, if there is one. They will have allocated your place to another child.

Is it if benefit fir your child to go to school with her current peers, given her SEN? Will it give her confidence? Will her friends be strong allies?

Does the school admissions policy give priority to SEN?

No, it's just a standard admissions policy...

Is it if benefit fir your child to go to school with her current peers, given her SEN? Will it give her confidence? Will her friends be strong allies?

I think this is really important - thank you. DD has had disruption to her schooling before and now has good friends who (I think!) will be going to local school. In her case this has to be a big consideration. The local school is also smaller and has strong links with her current primary school.

Be mindful that if you do get allocated that school on Mar 1st you can’t change your mind and go to your nearest school without going in the waiting list, if there is one. They will have allocated your place to another child.

This is the worry! Means there is actually a big potential downside to applying for 'unlikely' school (both are usually oversubscribed).

DD1’s best friend put down a school that was in the same borough but nowhere near them, outstanding school that they had no real chance of getting into. They got turned down but stayed on the waiting list...DD’s friend got offered a place the day before term started! Always go with what you think will be best for your DD- you never know.

This is what we did.

Our nearest secondary is good, nice school, many of DS friends attending etc, catchment not very 'posh'. The place allocation system where we live means that this school would be the one he would be most likely to get.

About half a mile further away is an outstanding secondary with a 'posh' catchment. However the catchment is tiny - effectively you have to buy a house costing upwards of £1.5m or rent a flat in it.

We knew we were unlikely to get the outstanding school, and were content with the good school. DS was quite clear he wanted to go to the good school not the outstanding school. However, we felt that we would in some way not be doing our duty as parents if we did not at least try for the outstanding school.

When the open days came round we went to look at the outstanding school, the good school and one other, with DS attending each but us explaining that he would get good schooling and make friends at each.

When we filled in the application form we put 1. Outstanding School 2. Good School 3. Other School knowing that we would likely get 2 anyway.

This is exactly what happened. So we were all happy. We felt like we had done our bit to try for No 1, DS was pleased he got No 2. And No 2 has been great so far, TBH.

Does this help at all? Hope so!

@nongnangning that is helpful thanks!

I’m becoming a bit concerned about the possibility that we get the unlikely school - that DD will be upset not to be with friends etc. But most likely we wouldn’t get it anyway!