AIBU to think DD should have been told about CV cases at office?

[WorkplaceQuery]

I had a thread on this yesterday but it has developed so I thought I would start a new updated one, any advice greatly appreciated. Sorry for length!

DD17 has a part time job cleaning an office on Tuesday and Friday evenings (for background she employed through an agency, she is a college student, also I am clinically extremely vulnerable/shielded category in a local lockdown area). Last week DD cleaned Tues and Fri nights as usual, there was someone working late on Friday when she was there, DD is unsure whether she was within 2m. There is a kitchen at the offices but no toilet. DD cleans all surfaces, mugs etc and empties all bins, takes rubbish bags to external bins.

On Sunday DD has a call from the cleaning agency boss asking for the building code as he was doing a "quality check". No problem.

DD turned up for work last night and a cleaner from another office asked if she knew about the confirmed CV case in DD's office on Friday?! DD said no and messaged her boss to ask for details. He said he only knew of it on Saturday when he was asked to organise a de fogging service but would get details from the office and let her know today.

And today he informs her - The case who the cleaner referred to was apparently someone who showed symptoms on Wed, was tested. Didn't attend office on Thurs and Fri. Received positive result on Saturday. Employees who had been within two metres of him were told to isolate.

Then yesterday they had two more confirmed positive cases! One was in the office Friday but has not been in since. Another was last in the office Thursday and showed symptoms at the weekend.

So three positive confirmed cases in total (there are about ten people working there) and DD was completely unaware and the boss didn't tell her when he called her (lied?) at the weekend as to why they needed access (ie professional de fogging). She went in to clean last night not knowing any of this.

DD cleaned the office Tuesday and Friday night last week and was with someone in the office Friday night. She had previously told her boss she lived with someone CEV. Surely to fuck she should have been told about all this at the very least, and should her details have been passed onto to T & T/Public health or whoever deals with this? DD has been to college today and also used public transport.

DD is lovely and calm. I am slightly on the ceiling and was told to calm down yesterday, I would like Mners to calm me down again please and tell me I am BU to be worried. Sorry for the length!

Was this person working late on Friday the only person who your DD was in the office with last week? If so, then unless that person has tested positive, then no they don't need to inform her.

Even if it was that person who tested positive but your DD hadn't been within 2 metres for more than 15 mins then she still wouldn't be considered a contact under test and trace guidelines, so still wouldn't need to be informed.

I really think your DD was at absolutely minimal risk. I do think you should be calm about it, if only because your blood pressure being raised is probably bad for you.

If your DD was cleaning after hours, and there was still an employee there, it’s vastly unlikely they were suffering symptoms of CV. It’s spread through airborne droplets more than via surfaces, and I assume your DD has PPE to clean in - gloves etc? - so minimal risk from surfaces, minimal risk from the lone employee who was there.

We don't know whether the Friday person was the positive case, I know it's actually very unlikely that DD would have been in "enough" contact to be at risk herself. (But they surely didn't know that)

I (well DD) just has an issue with the way it has been handled and feels like she has been lied to, and not just by omission, actually lied to at the weekend and yesterday and that this has been "covered up". If it hadn't been for the other cleaner DD would never have known there had been a case at all, and then to find out (by specifically asking the questions!) there has been three positive cases within one week, in the timeframe she has been at the premises.

Surely they should have at least have contacted her and asked how long she was in contact with anyone there (it's not unusual for people to be working late in the room she is cleaning) after the first, or second or third case Also they know she lives with someone CEV. Let alone using public transport and going to college....

It just seems really irresponsible of them and it's obvious they are trying to back-pedal away from it.

Sorry, my response was a bit blunt there considering you were actually asking for reassurance!

I should have said, she doesn't need to be informed because if she's not considered a contact then she doesn't need to self isolate as she's not considered to be at risk of infection - so you should absolutely calm down about it as she's very very likely to be completely fine.

She wasn't supplied with any PPE (should have said) she has her own resuable cotton masks (handsewn by me ) and thin latex type gloves she has bought herself.

She also (gloved but still PHE don't consider it actual PPE if non medical grade PPE) handled the waste on Friday which should have been treated as hazardous I believe? And they knew she had handled that waste when they arranged the proper defogging etc and didn't say anything to her - actually lied about why they needed access to the building.

I think I do know that she is at actual little risk (hopefully) or catching it from the waste or face to face contact - but surely her employers had a duty to check this and ascertain the risk - and not to lie to her especially knowing she lives with someone CEV and uses transport, goes to college etc.

But they ask the person who tested positive, they don't ask every single member of staff. So let's say it was the Friday night person, they ask that person who they came into contact with and then if they say 'I was within 2m of the cleaner for about an hour' then that's when your DD gets informed. If they say 'the cleaner was around but I was never within 2m of her' then I'm afraid your DD has no actual right to be informed, nor any need since she doesn't have to self isolate.

If she's not a contact, then she's allowed to go to college, go on public transport etc so it's not an issue that she's done those things. And she can't choose to self isolate against govt advice just because she lives with someone who was shielding (or at least, she wouldn't be entitled to any SSP and probably occupational sick pay if she self isolates without actually needing to).

I understand they are reliant on the confirmed person giving the details of who they have been in contact with and if they didn't think they had been with DD, that's fine. (I do worry a bit about the waste issue though just because of government guidelines etc)

I think knowing there has been three cases and they've actively tried to keep it from DD, is the problem. It seems as though they have all caught it from each other and presumably gone home to families, used transport etc. I wonder at what point cases are "outbreaks" - I can see how quickly these things spread now. Scary really.

I do understand your concern given the nature of her role, but a brief reading of the guidance for non clinical setting suggests no PPE is required for general cleaning (other than whatever is normally used), gloves and apron are required for cleaning immediately after a confirmed case and it suggests face coverings may be needed only in settings where there is a higher risk (eg hotel room where they spent the night), so it may be that the employers are actually following guidance correctly.

It sounds like none of the positive cases have been at work since last week and presumably the place has been cleaned in between your DD's Friday shift and her Tuesday shift, so she no longer needs to follow the immediate post-case guidance (ie. apron and gloves) and therefore is OK to carry on as normal, so again, there is no reason to be informed.

Handling waste doesn't count as being a contact for test and trace or require self isolation, so again, just because she did the bins on Friday doesn't mean they have to tell her.

I do get your anxiety around it, but from an employer's perspective it sounds like they are acting in accordance with the guidance. There's no obligation to tell everyone who's ever been in the building every time there's a positive case, and if your DD didn't need to self isolate and wasn't required to clean surfaces immediately after a positive case so needed extra PPE, then I'm afraid they don't have to share this information with her.

What exactly do you feel would have been the point in telling her? She doesn't have to self isolate, so it would be futile information surely? She'd still have gone to college, she'd still have gone to work on Tues, she still wouldn't have needed extra PPE. All knowing about it appears to have done is stress you both out. I do sympathise, it's stressful all the fucking time at the moment, but I don't necessarily think her employers have done anything wrong.

Life is going to be like this for many months, so we're all going to have to get used to the way these processes work, even if it's not how we'd ideally like them to work.

You're right of course nerdsville technically the only thing that was technically "wrong" or risky was DD doing the cleaning on Friday immediately after the positive CV person had been in the office, especially as they have never supplied her with any PPE (but she is intelligent enough to use her own).

I think the thing is that, if her employer had said to her "just letting you know we are getting it defogged as there was a confirmed case " on Sunday, and asking her about contact with staff/waste/PPE instead of lying to her, it would have been absolutely fine. The further two cases would have been a bit of a moment, but again if they had just told her instead of keeping it quiet and her hearing it from another cleaner and having to ask...it's the way it's been handled, I think. Looks like they have something to hide!

I think DD is more annoyed about the way they have treated it, if someone acts like they've got something to hide instead of being upfront, it's worrying isn't it? She has just said that when she was in on Tuesday there was lots of signs up about social distancing, desks moved and tape put down etc so it looks like they have had to change various procedures and it would be good sense (and also polite) to keep your office cleaner, as well as in office staff, up to date you would think.

Anyway, no harm no foul. I hope the positive people in the office are doing OK. Definitely new and scary times - ironically I'm well used to germs trying to kill me off especially in Winter, you would think I would actually be a lot calmer!

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to post thank you.

I think your daughter is much more likely to get covid from her time at college or on public transport. So I think best not to blow this out of proportion, the employer hasn't done anything wrong