To ask horsey people what I should have done

[hitchedhiker]

I was out for a walk with DP yesterday, dog well-behaved on his lead. We were on a well-marked public footpath crossing a field with 2 horses and a small pony in it. The shape of the field meant that we were already past the horses and moving further away from them as soon as we entered.

The horse came towards us, as they sometimes do, DP said 'hello boy' to it in a friendly way, but it immediately started prancing around trying to get at the dog. Turning it's back towards us and kicking, stopping us leaving the field. By this time the other two had come over and they were starting to act oddly as well.

When I'd stopped laughing at DP (who was struggling to keep hold of the lead as the dog was trying to get away from the horses) I managed to position myself between DP and the horses and backed out of the field waving my arms and shouting to try and keep the main attacker away from them.

I'm an ex-farmworker and a keen walker, I've worked with pigs and cattle and worked around (but not really with) horses many times. I've never even heard of a horse going out of it's way to attack a peaceful dog on a lead.

What should I have done in that situation? And AIBU to have reported the landowner to the council?

@IncandescentSilver

This sounds very strange. I've been plagued by people letting their dogs run loose because a public footpath goes through part of my farm. I've fenced off the footpath, put multiple signs up saying "keep your dog on a lead" and similar, I've tried to dog proof the fencing and gates, and the one part where it's not dog proof, people STILL let their dogs off the lead so they run underneath the fence and chase my horses

Unfirtunately, my horses are too gentle and don't kick the dogs. I wont detail the injuries they suffered, but suffice to say I take what dog owners say with regards to well behaved dogs being kept on leads with a pinch of salt.

I hope that wasn’t aimed at me because I certainly wasn’t lying. And it has happened more than once. Dog under control, on short lead, not barking, walking in footpath. Horse cantering you, kicking out at dogs, ears back.

Kicking out at dog, that should say.

Horse owner here, waving arms and standing your ground works fine to move them away. I’d have done the same. Not ideal having a footpath over the field with them loose, but same as if there were cows in there. Strange to be aggressive to the dog, mine would have come for kisses!

Horse owner here.

A horse being that aggressive to a dog, and the horse approaching the dog in order to be aggressive, is unusual. I used to keep my horse where there were public footpaths running through the fields and I can't remember anything similar happening. That said, my horse has chased one of the yard dogs out of her field before (no public access) so it's not unheard of, just rare.

It could be that the horse has been attacked or bothered previously, and is 'getting in first' or that they've been fed by walkers and are getting pissy when humans don't produce food. Either way, I'd try and find the owner (either of the horse or the yard) and explain what happened. They might need to fence off the footpath to separate horses and walkers.

Total bollocks that you arent allowed a dog on a PROW. Horses can be aggressive towards dogs and people, and the owner of the horse has strict liability if there were any injuries, so it is in their interests to be made aware of their animal's behaviour. Ours are always fenced off room the public for this very reason.

Making yourself as big as possible while saying a loud grrrr or whatever plus twirling a lead can discourage them, but you do need to avoid getting kicked, they can be quick to turn and show a pair of heels!

There are a lot of horses round us and I have heard of mares with foals being aggressive to dogs in a similar way.

@hitchedhiker

So uncannily similar that I’m wondering if you live in my very rural village in Wales!

No, on the Salford/Warrington border - which is far nicer and more rural than it sounds.

Was this between Budworth and Arley by any chance...? We had an incredibly similar experience on Saturday!

I've tried to dog proof the fencing and gates, and the one part where it's not dog proof, people STILL let their dogs off the lead so they run underneath the fence and chase my horses

We had that at the previous yard with footpaths - and not only was it dogs running under the fences at the horses, it was their owners throwing balls in (including, on one notable occasion, using a cricket bat to knock balls across the field, which nearly hit the horses) and even people climbing through the fences to have picnics!

A reel of mesh, small enough to stop hooves going through, stapled to the wooden fence put an end to that, as did a strand of live electric fencing.

I'm pretty sure the landowner has a legal responsibility to make sure that no livestock (including horses) in field with footpaths are aggressive

You may keep horses loose in a field crossed by public rights of way as long as they are not known to be dangerous.

I'd report it

Unfortunately whilst YOU have the right to use a public footpath, there actually is no legal entitlement to take your dog across it, and so livestock in fields being a danger to the dog, and you because you have a dog with you is likely not an offence as you have no actual right to take the dog...

As linked, this is not quite true.

It's easily confused with the principle that the dog itself does not have right of way. That's true. But humans are entitled to take a controlled dog with them, if they are using the right of way. The dog does not have the right, the right is the human's to have a dog with them.

The result is that there is no (legal) mitigation for an aggressive horse that is reacting to a dog accompanying a human, assuming the measure for the dog being under 'close control' has been met. e.g. on a short or shortened lead.

Question for the horse crew!

Would you be better off letting the dog go off its lead, or letting go of the lead, if you felt really threatended?.

So you and dog are now apart?..

As a dog owner as well as a very horsey person id never let go of the lead both for the dogs and the horses sake and safety, an uncontrolled dog could easily make matters worse.

@midnightstar66

(or grab by forelock

Sorry but grabbing and unknown, and clearly agitated, horse by the forelock, especially when you have no previous experience handling horses and no halter is absolutely terrible advice. Please never do that!

I said that's what I would do, because I do have experience handling horses and do know when its safe to grab forelock, grab a chunk of mane, deliver a bollocking etc!

Note I didn't say it's what I'd advise someone ELSE to do!

Would you be better off letting the dog go off its lead, or letting go of the lead, if you felt really threatended?

I would not let a dog off a lead around horses - you've got no control over whether or not the dog will attack the horse when it feels threatened, even if they are not normally an aggressive dog, and you risk being held accountable for the damage your dog has done, not least for not having your dog under control.

A horse near me was attacked by a dog a few years ago and the vet bills ran into many, many thousands of pounds. And the dog owners were legally liable for them.

We used to regularly walk through a field on a public footpath which had horses/cows/sheep in it (depending on time of year/farmer's whims)

There was one particular horse that went for people - you'd always take note of where he was, and if he was between you and the style, you'd just have to give up and go the long way round, or you'd be bitten.

I have 35 years of handling horses. If you, with all the experience in the world grabbed my rescue pony who was head shy or my contrary ex race horse in that manner I'd expect you to come away injured (far worse from the pony, she'd really flip out if I'd done that to her let alone a stranger)

Horse and dog owner here.

Sounds to me like they have been fed! If it's a popular walking path then it's probable that they were expecting food.
My advice is to always have an extra dog lead with you. I always carry a spare in a bag in case of breakages or coming into contact with livestock.

In this situation what you do is hold the clip of the lead with one hand and have the other 1/3 of the way down the rope. gently circle the rope in a controlled way to the side of you. Not aggressively towards the horse but enough to make you look big and a bit unpredictable. Start with small circles and let the rope get longer and faster if needs be. I sometimes do it over my head too. Works well with both cattle and horses.

@Florencex I'm another surprised that your haven't come across horses kept in fields with PROWs across them. They definitely exist, and the public are generally the bane of those horse owner's lives.

To the OP it sounds like you did the best you could and YANBU to report it. The only thing I would add would be to take hands out of pockets before you go in as some horses think hands emerge from pockets with treats and are a nuisance. It sounds to me like they were either getting their defence in first if they've had a bad experience with dogs, or were youngsters trying to play boisterously. Neither of which is ideal to keep in a field with PROW access but their options might be limited.

Unfortunately I don't think it's legal to fence off a safe path for walkers if a PROW crosses a field - I've come across that issue myself in the past. You can apply to have the PROW diverted, but that costs money.

Letting go of the lead is a (my) life or death situation. Horses can be dangerous but I struggle to imagine anything but the most extreme scenario where I felt the odds were quite that stacked. But much depends on the dog, I would guess. My own dog...

a) is not really a runaway-er. He's more of a stand and fight kind. When pushed. He would not help the situation by being let off the lead.

b) regularly comes running with me so in a scenario where a quick exit is needed, he would easily run alongside me. Not that I can outrun a determined horse but I am guessing a horse that is actively chasing a runner fits into the "extreme scenario" category

Accidentally finding myself in a field with an aggressive bull, on the other hand... which is why the dog and I avoid cattle fields unless I am confident they are all lone females with no calves and the other end of a large field, away from the path.

"Of course I have seen a horse in a field. But not a field that members of the public have access to, no, never."
Public footpaths can often pass through farm land, that means a path may take you straight through a field of horses, cows, sheep or even crops.

It was where the black marker is here on the Glazebrook Trail.

So be warned!

Amd yes the advice to grab an unknown horse by anything but especially the middle of their forehead where they can't see your hand is bizarre and dangerous advice.

@compulsiveliar2019's suggestion of the lead is good advice. Also works with other livestock too. Hitting your own coat/legs with it in a flip flop motion on either side of you would also make a noise that should keep them away too.

There is a horse in a Field near me that has done this exact thing to me and my Dog twice. We don't go through that field if the horse is there anymore. I used to ride a lot and some horses are just that way inclined I think.
I think you have done the right thing in reporting it.

I think you did the right thing OP.

FWIW my MIL has 4 horses and two of them would probably have come straight to you. One is friendly, loves people and just assumes you want him nearby and that you'll have food for him.
The other has played with MILs dogs all her life - she loves dogs and will happily approach them and start acting like a dickhead playful around them. First time I saw it I was sure she was going to kick or stand on the dog but that's because I didn't know her very well then.

Saying that, MIL wouldn't put her horses somewhere people could end up in the field with her because she knows people don't always understand what they're doing and even more people won't want her horses following them around in the hope of a pat on the head and some food

Let the dog go, get yourselves out of the field asap but keep an eye on where the horses/cows are and leave the dog to run away until you can get it out of the field. Always let go of the dog and look after yourself.

Whoever suggested trying to 'grab the forelock' is an idiot.