year 11s sat on high stools for the rest of the year, all have back ache after one day

[bimblingonagain]

Hi be grateful of some guidance on this. All the year groups are to stay in their bubbles, sat in one classroom with teachers coming to them. This is intended to last until next May. They were in school on Monday, will be in again today and are back 5 days/week from next Monday.
The year 11s are in the science block. This is high benches and high stools. Great to science practicals (which are actually banned for this academic year). But to write they have to lean forward. The boys and long legged girls cannot put their legs forward. They all have back ache after one day. Many of them don't want to go in today.
Surely the school (and yes I know it is difficult times etc etc) have to ensure that they have an ergonomic learning set up in place?
Any suggestions? Its a massively underfunded state school (we are in an area that receives the lowest amount of funding per child in the whole UK).
thanks hive mind

I'm a hypermobile short arse and I can't do high stools, I wouldn't expect a child to suffer in silence, either. It was uncomfy enough when my form group drew the short straw and did a week in one of the labs for school exam week a couple of times.

I'd demand my child is given a "normal" chair and a folding exam desk or be allowed to stand. Either that or they either allow or fund some form of foot rest. I keep a step-up under my work desk.

If the school were dithering and obstructive then under-funded or not I would tell them you'll start submitting them the bills for any chiropractic, physio therapy or sports massage treatment you've deemed necessary to offset their poor regard for their pupils.

If all else fails, pull your best sad face (not too hard to do with a bad back) and tell the local paper or the daily mail.

could they build a temporary raised plank floor between the benches & use standard chairs?, altho buying these would be cheaper probably www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/stig-bar-stool-with-backrest-black-silver-colour-10152700/

Does the school not have a Health and Safety officer? Maybe raise with them in the first place?

Sorry, have voted YABU. I'm certain the school does not want them to be uncomfortable, but they can't magic up money out of nowhere. I'm a science teacher and the lab tables are also high (so that working at them is comfortable when standing), so on the occasions when we have had students with back problems we have had to source specialist chairs - normal ones mean the pupils have their elbows lower than the table. These are expensive, and we only have 1 in the whole school (and we are a big school with 13 labs). A class set of them would be a very large expense and I just don't see where the school would get the money from.

It's a really unfortunate consequence of Covid policies in schools, but unless you have a way of funding it, I don't see what can be done.

Having spent a fair amount of time sat at these benches myself, you do not HAVE to lean forwards to write. Many Y11s do, but there are ways to sit more comfortably.

Science and tech labs are designed with high tables and stools so that when practicals are taking place the children can stand up and function (do things) at heights that are safe and that don't injure their backs. They aren't intended to be used for traditional teaching for long periods of time.

I don't think YABU- teenagers' bodies are vulnerable to injury as they are developing and I'd be raising it too.

I raised this as a thread on here last year and got completely shot down in true mn style. Apparently I needed to teach my son not to slouch. 🙄

My son has had near permanent backache due to science stools. He started his science A levels last week after months of being pain free and the aches are back. No budget for school to change them. I’d imagine it’s not healthy for growing teenagers and certainly wouldn’t be allowed in my adult workplace, but we seem to accept this sort of thing with teens as a right of passage.

YANBU and I'd imagine this scenario is being played out in most secondary schools. It's hard to know what schools can do to change it though - there are only so many classrooms and presumably they all need to be used. Students are staying in the same classrooms all day because of Covid so unless additional classrooms can be found what can schools do?

To be fair, my school is not keeping kids in one place. Staff are staying in their rooms and classes come to us. We have change over time and all pupils leave the buildings and line up in designated places and staff go and collect them so bubbles are supposedly kept separate. I much prefer this as I can keep my room safe (I'm clinically vulnerable). We clean all tables between lessons.
I'm not saying it's perfect. But it's another suggestion.

The Year 11s are in science labs at my school too OP. There just isn’t anywhere else for them to go and as they are the tallest it makes the most sense for them to be there. We are also in a v underfunded part of the UK.

We have been told to let them stand if they need to.

I'm in Scotland, so slightly different but my dd's high school is as normal as possible, the kids all go round all their classes as usual, following a one way system, masks worn in corridors, hand sanitizer on way in and out of each class, and they have to wipe down their desk and chair at the end of each class , probably not ideal, but seems to be ok so far, dont know if this could be an option, don't know if schools are doing bubbles here or not, doesn't sound like it, so ill guess not, hopefully your school find a way where everyone can be comfortable quickly.

'But to write they have to lean forward' - Could they use laptop stands/boxes/textbooks to raise an area of the desk higher to write on so they wouldn't have to lean forward and down?

Worth putting a plea out over local news or gumtree for free or very cheap office chairs/tables (or ideally those ones where the arm turns into a table) they can then set up in the PE hall or somewhere? Or they might have to move the labs around if they aren't doing practical experiments anyway. Lots of places moving to WFH will be having a refit or downsizing and might be able to give stuff away - my office has had a complete refub a few years ago and offering the old equipment out for free to staff and later to the community in general was much cheaper than getting it disposed of.

If they are sixteen they could be in the workplace and would have to meet HSE rules and wouldn't be expected to sit like that for the whole day so can't see how they can in school. Remembering those stools even sitting on the floor would be comfier!

Those stools made my back ache really badly 50-odd years ago when the longest I ever spent at them was a double period. Spending all day at them must be hell.

Back in the olden days, before CAD was invented, drawing office staff used to sit on high stools with backrests and footrests, and their drawings were done on a sloping drawing board.

Perhaps a sloped surface to write on might help? I know you can buy them, but it may be possible to make something simple that does the job.

Might be a good project for CDT or whatever it's called these days.

wow so many replies while I was working! Thanks so much to you all.
The exam chairs come from the usual classrooms. The school hall, where the exams take place, is to be used for PE lessons.

Lots of parents have rung in and one has spoken to the school this morning who have advised they are looking into it. Turns out its the year 11s in the science block and the year 8s in the tech rooms (no idea what they are) that are all sat on stools.

The benches are fixed, gas taps and all that, so can't be taken out.

There are no funds, so whatever the solution is, we will have to crowdfund/beg. One of the parents is an occupational therapist, she is going to go to the school to assess what can be done that is good for the kids, so that is great news.

We have another parent who has a container full of chairs from a closed business, she is willing to lend, but it might be no use as the chairs will be so much lower than the science benches.

There are other local schools in the same position, and reading all the comments, this is happening all over the country, so I think the schools are talking to each other to get the "approved" solution for this.

Some have said that they are expecting covid to pop up and that either bubbles will have to be quarantined, or that teachers will have to stay home meaning the children cannot go in, that frees up standard classrooms periodically.

The guidance given to the schools is changing by the day!

I love the idea re the camping chairs and a clipboard, I will ask my DD if she wants to take one in next week, we have stacks in the shed.

I would have to step in if this were my DC. I understand schools have had to work really hard in order to get students back into school but situations like this are just not workable. If everyone is hugely uncomfortable they also won't be able to learn effectively. I would start with the HT as it could just have been totally overlooked. If it gets minimised and the school is seriously strapped for cash I would probably contact the local MP. A couple of mobile classrooms for a year seems like a solution to me but the money needs to come from somewhere and that's providing there's space.

DS has something similar in sixth form college, they've made all their lessons 3.5 hours so as to reduce mixing and so it's 7 hours on one of those stools all day if you're doing sciences. DS came home with backache yesterday too and said loads of the others did. I think I will email school too, it's too much for them :(

OP, I've been a science teacher in many schools and I've never worked in one where the whole bench is fixed. I currently have fixed pods (hexagons) but that's the only time.
Usually there is a stack where the gas and sinks are, the benches then but up to them. These are movable.

I'm not meaning to sound like I'm saying you are wrong, but it might be worth another check.

Also, you say exam chairs are used from classrooms. I don't see how that is possible in GCSE exam sessions. The exams go on for 5-6 weeks. Many schools have year 11 in normal lessons during this time and they only go out if they are sitting that exam. Are you in a tiny school?

I would imagine that all PE lessons are currently outside even in bad weather. It would go against all guidance and common sense to have PE inside at the moment.

I sit on a lab bench all day but I obviously am up more than the kids. I do remember the hard wooden ones at school many moons ago. The plastic ones with backs really aren't that bad-some are better than others. If they are the correct height and tucked in properly, with a foot rest, they shouldn't be causing a problem.

I am not sure about the comments that this wouldn't be allowed in a work place. I have worked in plenty of labs and the seating provided is normally high stools (sometimes with back rests). However, you do tend to stand up quite a bit. Are they allowed to stand for a bit as that might help? Also can they tuck their stools under? They shouldn't need to lean over to write, if they can. If not, can they remove whatever is under the bench?

I would suggest emailing tutor, explaining the issue and asking for Ds to have permission to work standing up when needs to.

Much healthier to stand up all day rather than sit anyway.

If they can't put legs forward because there is a cupboard, could the cupboard contents/shelf/door be removed? Obviously a bit of work, but worth doing if things are going to be like this for a while and it solves the problem.

Is there enough room for them to sit facing the other way, between the benches, if they had chairs with built in table flaps? If there's a university nearby, there's a fair chance that they have lots of those chairs which won't be used until lectures stop being online - maybe they could lend them?

Hi thanks for more replies. I am hoping the school will come up with a solution. I dont know if they can move the cupboard doors, or some benches, they told the other parent that they were fixed but maybe they meant just some of them. It is a very small school and they switch things up when exams are on, to enable the chair switcherooni. They have some spare folding ones, but not enough for all the year 11s and 8s, but the chairs wouldnt fit in the science classrooms anyway.
They are definitely using the hall for PE, we have had emails from the school about the PE plans. There will be some indoor and some outdoor. I might have it wrong, as the school is attached to the local gym so maybe they are talking about the gym hall and I thought they meant school hall .
Main thing is an OT is going in next week so that can only help and the school are actively looking at what they can do.
But its 5 days a week in the science block for my hypermobile DD while the bubble situation carries on - so I will be offering her a camping chair!

OP I missed that she is hypermobile. I would be requesting an exam desk and chair for her based on her personal circumstances. They will definitely be able to find room for one table and chair. She may find it hard to see the board though if the teacher bench is higher and even worse on a stage like some are I've fallen off said stage to many a student's delight, far too often

This is one of the problems with government insisting that school has to be full time for all pupils but with no extra resources provided.

I am also raising this with my Year 11 DS's school (as are other parents and some of the teachers as well). Year 11s have been allocated the science rooms with high benches and stools, and the vast majority of classes will take place in these rooms. The stools have no back support and are too tall for the children to place their feet on the floor (even my relatively tall DS has to have his feet on the rungs). Several are already complaining of sore backs after the first week.

Whilst I understand that schools have struggled to fit students in bubbles, it really is a H&S concern - sitting on stools for long periods of time would fail a workplace assessment, so why is it OK for young people? I am worried that this will impact on ability to learn, as well as setting up all kinds of musculoskeletal problems for the future.

Could they use the benches as standing desks to write, with chairs to sit on when they aren't writing? If they aren't high enough, they could add a raised desk top to the top of the benches. The lecture/conference chairs with writing arms could be another solution.

Science teacher here. I've worked in two schools with permanent benches and one that had fixed columns for gas and water but moveable tables.

At my last we had high chairs - exactly the same as normal chairs but with longer legs and a foot bar.

Unfortunately the school won't be able to magic up money to replace a schools worth of stools. I hope the OT parent can make some suggestions.