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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

this carseat thing is d*** contradictory and confusing

49 replies

BabyLlamaZen · 06/09/2020 10:32

Baby is getting close to 12 months and outgrowing his car seat. Research recommends that they should be rear facing until aged 4 and definitely at least 15 months (which is about to be a legal requirement). I can deal with him being rear facing longer than anyone else, no matter how much fuss he pulls. I get that things change. Hey, it used to be OK to put kids in the front of the car!

What I can't work out is why so many car seats are made forward facing so young???

We have a stupidly old car which doesn't have isofix base and the top one for that (joie) is forward facing from 9 months. What? Confused despite this being illegal? I get that it works if we moved him into it aged 15 months but before 4, when it's not recommended. So what does the baby go in for those months between 12 - 15 months when it's illegal to be forward facing?

It's so annoying and a bit of a minefield! So we've now had to get a non swivel one which is rear facing. I haven't got the best back either so that's annoying!

It's really not helpful or clear what to do!

So... car seat manufacturers and laws NOT HELPFUL AND CONFUSING.

AIBU?

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 06/09/2020 11:49

Just looked it up on YT out of curiosity - the genuine Ford and Audi ones look alright to me - you can see when you follow the amazon link through that these are substantially more solid than the flimsy looking "universal" ones from random Chinese manufacturers.

Child seats have recently become law in many Asian countries so beware of cheap poor quality products originating from those markets.

HappyPotato · 06/09/2020 11:52

I don't think you can get a swivel seat which isn't isofix so I'm confused about that.
Just because it can be forward facing from a certain weight doesn't mean you have to, our joie steadi can forward face from 9kg but also stays rear facing until the max weight.

They also only have to stay rear facing until 15 months in I-size seats, it's not law for the old type of carseat.

dementedpixie · 06/09/2020 11:55

There are 2 sets of regulations for car seats that are running side by side. One set concerns weight based seats whereby you can forward face from 9kg. The other set concerns ISize seats where you have to rear face until 15 months. Its not illegal to forward face in a weight based seat from 9kg but its not sensible especially if your baby is heavy for their age.

Heyha · 06/09/2020 11:59

Joie and Maxi Cosi do quite a range of ERF car seats that are seatbelt fitted rather than isofix so I'm not really sure what the stress is here. I've just had to buy the same for my DD and I was struggling to choose tbh.

Heyha · 06/09/2020 12:03

Oh wait, is the issue you wanted a swivel seat without isofix? Sorry I didn't see that detail in the OP when I first read. I guess the issue is that cars without isofix are slowly dying out/being scrapped at the same time as isize is about to become law so there's two lots of two different requirements overlapping.

Cantaj · 06/09/2020 12:08

I found it confusing too. I think the key thing is defo extended RF is much safer - so get a RF seat. I checked out Which reviews of car seats and was surprised some of the big names (some rear facing seats too!)did not do well at all in the independent safety tests. We got a Britax Romer rear facing seat for our car and a Joie stages for holidays/ grandparent car. The difference in quality is clear - hardly use the Joie and yet the material is all ragged. The Romer is excellent - comfy and easy to use and looks good as new a year on. Find it odd that kids complaining about RF if they don't know any different!

BalanceGreen · 06/09/2020 12:11

We also have an old car without Isofix. We have owned two car seats for DD who is just five (but small).

As a baby she was in a Maxi Cosi Pebble which could be strapped in rear facing. When she outgrew that we got a Besafe Izi Plus (I think that's it) which she is still in, still rear-facing at five, but just at the point where we need to find a new one based on her height - but frankly don't want to have to start the minefield of car seat shopping again!

I do think it's confusing but very much depends on your child's size and not helped by all the cheap, 'fun' forward-facing seats which dominate the shops.

MJMG2015 · 06/09/2020 12:15

@plunkplunkfizz

What is d*?
The OP has * For the swear words. The iPhone changes fucking to ducking. Despite the ratio of times I have ever typed fucking out weighs ducking to about a million to one.

So it'll be a combo, but meant to be fucking

(I have to manually accept the non corrected word every single fucking time If I just type it I get ducking !!!!)

Tootletum · 06/09/2020 12:22

I have old seats that are still legal as they were manufactured and bought before the isize changes. I therefore put my youngest forward facing at 1. I spend my time checking the ncap rating of cars I'm interested in instead. Makes a much bigger difference to their chances of surviving a serious crash.

nosleeptoddler · 06/09/2020 12:29

I am amazed that so many are RF until 4 - no one I know does it, and both my kids refused RF at around the 18mo mark (my firstborn never liked RF and just screamed every time from birth, my 2nd started to get jealous of 1st born FF and started screaming from about 12mo old). I would rather sell the car than have to drive around with them screaming in the back constantly.

Do 4 year olds really happily sit RF? Where do their legs go? It must be very uncomfortable, no?

BalanceGreen · 06/09/2020 12:36

Do 4 year olds really happily sit RF? Where do their legs go? It must be very uncomfortable, no?

My DD doesn't seem bothered. Legs just go out to the side. She sits FF in grandparents' car occasionally but has never complained about one over the other.

KarlKennedysDurianFruit · 06/09/2020 12:53

@BertieBotts DHs is a ford , our local garage fitted one for my friend in her focus too

BertieBotts · 06/09/2020 12:58

Seats which allow rear facing for four year olds sit back slightly from the back seat to create leg room for the child.

They are comfortable, they would have to be for that age of child as they can and do easily let their views be known! Not quite the same as a baby who can cry but not tell you why they are crying.

Don't picture the tiny baby seats but bigger :) They are totally different sorts of chair.

CharismaticVic · 06/09/2020 13:01

@BertieBotts

YANBU, it is confusing!

The reason why though is because the different info is coming from different sources.

RF to age 4 comes from safety experts / Sweden / longer term research and is based on eliminating instances of death or serious injury caused by internal decapitation/spinal cord stretching injury caused by the massive forces present on the neck in a forward facing harnessed seat. If you look at the data it is not exactly 4, it's 3-and-some-months but for clarity's sake, it's 4. But those FB groups where somebody has a child who is 3 years 11 months and they are advised that it would be horrifically unsafe to forward face them now... are taking it a bit too literally. Guidance has to be simple and 4 is simple.

RF to 15 months is slightly different, if you look at real world crash data (crashes where at least one person was injured) and look at child occupants and whether they sit RF or FF and whether they are killed or seriously injured in crashes, if you were to draw a line across where a change in legislation would save the most lives, it's 15 months. And that's why it's now the minimum for the newer regulation car seats.

Forward facing from 9 months goes way, way, way back. The slightly older car seat legislation ie regulation 44 was originally drawn up in the late 70s, early 80s. Car seats existed but weren't especially easy to understand, they wanted an easy to understand system - your child moves from type 0 (infant carrier) to type 1 (toddler seat) to type 2 (high backed booster) to type 3 (backless booster) and they wanted these to be easy to understand and it to be easy to understand which stage of seat you're looking for. So they built in each group based on average age and abilities. For group 1 toddler seats it was assumed that if the child is able to sit up and support their own head this is safe, they don't need the reclined position for sleeping as in group 0 baby seats. Originally, Group 0 seats only went up to 10kg, 9kg is about the weight most babies learn to sit so there it is. The next transition point which is 15kg is based on the average weight of a 3yo as it was generally thought 3yos are mature enough not to fiddle with a seatbelt. Obviously there is some overlap between each group to allow for differently sized children, but originally it made sense.

At some point they extended Group 0 to allow Group 0+ which is 0-13kg. But Group 1 seats are still from 9kg because it didn't make sense to change that classification, the recommendation changed though from "At least 6 months and able to sit up" to "around 9 months" and more recently to "at least 15 months" following the newer regulation, where it's actually illegal to use the seat FF before 15 months.

Car seat manufacturers - they need to survive as a business, and parents overwhelmingly want forward facing seats. Most people simply don't like the idea of rear facing. It's perceived as complicated for the parent, unpleasant for the child, annoying to use (limited space, can't see child without a mirror). Put simply, purely RF seats do not sell, unless you're selling in an environment such as Sweden where RF for group 1 and sometimes 2 is the norm. So of course they produce and market what will sell. And just like baby food, if your product is usable "from 15 months" and your competitor's product is usable "from 9 months", which seat is the parent of a 12 month baby going to buy? Especially if the packaging and/or shop assistant assures them that forward facing is safe.

Recently, ERF has become more popular and so many companies have begun producing ERF seats even when they never did before. It's now easier and more affordable to RF than ever. But parents generally still want to forward face. If you try to sell them a RF only seat you can see they don't want it. Most people want at least the option to FF later. But I do see loads more people RF for longer and I think that's great :)

This is super helpful. We have a 3 year old and 20 month old, both are still RF in the Joie 360. 3 year old is 16.7kg so basically near the 18kg max on this particular seat. We really want to RF until 4 or later if we can but don't really know anything about ERF. Do you have any ERF recommendations? I won't be offended if you don't respond but you sound very knowledgeable xx
BertieBotts · 06/09/2020 13:03

There is a non isofix swivel one, but it's forward facing only. The original swivel seat in fact! Maxi Cosi Axiss.

OP technically it would be legal to put your 11mo forward facing, that's why there's an overlap, it wouldn't be safe for them though. I realise you've already bought a seat, but if you did want a more easy to use rear facing one than Joie which tend to have the seatbelt in the way you could look at Britax Max Way, Axkid Move/Minikid, Besafe izi Plus. Much more user friendly RF seats, low sides and sit towards the front of the car, so plenty of room to get DC in and easy on your back.

However these are not sold in high street stores so most people never hear of them. Unfortunately.

BertieBotts · 06/09/2020 13:11

Vic 16.7kg is still a fair way from 18kg so you might have longer in your seat than you think. On average children put on a kilo a year after age 2 but if they're high centiles it could be 8 months and lower centiles 18 months.

But if you wanted to continue to rear face you have options. There are several seats on the UK market which rear face up to 25kg, which is about 6 years old. They start at about £180 for seats such as Britax Max Way, Britax Two Way Elite. Then you have a couple of in between options - Britax Multi Tech and Axkid Move - and the more expensive options around £300 which are the Britax Max Way Plus, Axkid Minikid and Besafe izi Plus.

There is even a brand new never done before isofix one now which is £700, so over most people's budget! But might be worth it if you were using from 1yo or from birth.

Elai1978 · 06/09/2020 13:14

Hey, it used to be OK to put kids in the front of the car!

It’s still OK to put kids in the front of the car!

BertieBotts · 06/09/2020 13:16

I should add all the 25kg options (apart from the new isofix one) use Swedish style tethers to fit which can be a bit daunting but really aren't too difficult once you've done it once.

As someone upthread said, if you're near any of the in car safety centres they will be really helpful in sorting out a good seat for your car/child and helping fit it. This is another good list if not:

www.carseatadvice-uk.com/specialist-retailers.html

Hardbackwriter · 06/09/2020 13:20

We also had to have a non-isofix seat (the car actually has isofix but, stupidly and annoyingly, it has pointless storage compartments in the floor that means you can't use the leg that goes with the isofix) and we found it was really annoying for infant carriers but absolutely fine for the next stage, there were lots and lots of belted options (both rear and forward facing). If you found it really confusing and frustrating for infant seats then you might be pleasantly surprised when looking again.

CharismaticVic · 06/09/2020 13:37

[quote BertieBotts]I should add all the 25kg options (apart from the new isofix one) use Swedish style tethers to fit which can be a bit daunting but really aren't too difficult once you've done it once.

As someone upthread said, if you're near any of the in car safety centres they will be really helpful in sorting out a good seat for your car/child and helping fit it. This is another good list if not:

www.carseatadvice-uk.com/specialist-retailers.html[/quote]
Thank you so much, this super helpful. Wish we have known about the ERF £700 seats at birth as we would have seen it as an investment for both and adjusted spends accordingly (they would have been on finance, but safety is paramount). DC1 was 30lb last June so we were a bit worried and is 37lb this September (weighed last week for purposes of car seat) so I am glad the weight gain is gradual though I do think he is in 90th percentile. I will speak to DH as he is very good with new technologies etc. Xx

Heyha · 06/09/2020 13:51

Oh if I thought my car would last longer than I want DD rear facing I'd go for that maxi Cosi for my next seat, @BertieBotts! Didn't realise it was non-isofix, thanks for the info.

BertieBotts · 06/09/2020 15:45

The £700 seat has literally only just been released, so it wouldn't have been available when she was born anyway. :)

BertieBotts · 06/09/2020 15:52

The thing is though that most people likely wouldn't want to shell out £700 for a car seat at birth. It is only when you get to a year and they've outgrown the £250 infant seat and base combo, you decide to rear face until four, then you get to age 3 and they've outgrown the isofix spin seat that was £300 and you're looking at spending another £200+ on a further rear facing seat, then £700 for one seat from birth to six ish looks quite reasonable, but of course you only realise that in hindsight.

merryhouse · 06/09/2020 16:39

@BGirlBouillabaisse

Damn isn't a swear. No need for asterisks.

Car seat advice is confusing, both of mine turned around at about 3yo.

well I agree you don't need to asterisk it on here, but it most definitely is a swear. It's one that has lost a lot of its impact - possibly due to the decreasing influence of organised religion - but one of the subcategories of swearing is blasphemous oaths.

From HMS Pinafore

  • Though "bother it!" I may occasionally say, I never swear a big big d-
  • what, never?
  • no never!
  • what, never?
  • weeeeell... hardly ever!
  • hardly ever swears a big big d-
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