My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

AIBU?

The Disunited States of Trump (Trump Thread #104)

988 replies

TheNorthWestPawsage · 02/09/2020 14:25

Trump used manipulation and race-baiting four years ago. He’s at it again. We are weary and worried but we shall persist.

Cartoon by Chris Riddell.

Previous thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3983600-Less-than-100-days-and-counting-Trump-thread-103?msgid=99566209#99566209

The Disunited States of Trump (Trump Thread #104)
OP posts:
Report
Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 04/09/2020 11:43

This is an interesting response to that Atlantic article, on Facebook by Heather Cox Richardson, an American political historian:

September 3, 2020 (Thursday)

Tonight, The Atlantic published a story by Jeffrey Goldberg detailing Trump’s contempt for military service and the self-sacrifice of those killed in the line of duty. According to the story, sourced by interviews with military leaders and people close to Trump, “the president has repeatedly disparaged the intelligence of service members, and,” in 2018, asked that wounded veterans be kept out of a military parade “on grounds that spectators would feel uncomfortable in the presence of amputees. ‘Nobody wants to see that,’ he said.”

Goldberg details Trump’s fixation on the late Arizona Senator John McCain, who spent more than five years as a prisoner of the North Vietnamese after his plane was shot down in 1967, recounting the times in which Trump referred to McCain as a “loser,” which were captured both in tweets and in recordings. “He’s not a war hero,” Trump said of McCain in 2015. “I like people who weren’t captured.” Trump received five deferments from service in Vietnam because a doctor stated he suffered from bone spurs in his feet. In 2016, Trump’s campaign said the medical issue was temporary.

Goldberg writes that Trump “finds the notion of military service difficult to understand, and the idea of volunteering to serve especially incomprehensible.” He referred to those soldiers killed at Belleau Wood, where U.S. soldiers and their allies stopped the German advance toward Paris in 1918 during World War I, as “suckers” and “losers.”

In 2017, on Memorial Day, Trump and then-director of Homeland Security John Kelly (he would soon be named White House Chief of Staff) visited Arlington National Cemetery together. They went to the section of the cemetery where Kelly’s son Robert, a first lieutenant in the Marine Corps who was killed in Afghanistan in 2010, lies buried. Trump turned to Kelly and said: “I don’t get it. What was in it for them?”

One of Kelly’s friends, a retired four-star general, told Goldberg: “He can’t fathom the idea of doing something for someone other than himself…. He just thinks that anyone who does anything when there’s no direct personal gain to be had is a sucker. There’s no money in serving the nation.” Further, he said, Trump “can’t imagine anyone else’s pain. That’s why he would say this to the father of a fallen marine on Memorial Day in the cemetery where he’s buried.”

This story is short, well-written, and such a bombshell that the White House pushed back immediately. Shortly after The Atlantic posted the story, White House spokesperson Alyssa Farah emailed Goldberg a statement saying: “This report is false. President Trump holds the military in the highest regard. He’s demonstrated his commitment to them at every turn: delivering on his promise to give our troops a much needed pay raise, increasing military spending, signing critical veterans reforms, and supporting military spouses. This has no basis in fact.” (Trump frequently boasts that he gave members of the military their first pay raise in ten years. This is untrue: military members have gotten a pay raise every year since 1961.)

Speaking to reporters after a campaign trip to Pennsylvania, Trump said the article was a “disgrace” and the people who spoke to Goldberg “lowlifes.” “I would be willing to swear on anything that I never said that about our fallen heroes,” he said. “There is nobody that respects them more. So, I just think it’s a horrible, horrible thing.”

Later, Trump tweeted of his respect for McCain. “I never called… John a loser,” —it is both on tape and on Twitter that he did— “and swear on whatever, or whoever, I was asked to swear on, that I never called our great fallen soldiers anything other than HEROES. This is more made up Fake News given by disgusting & jealous failures in a disgraceful attempt to influence the 2020 Election!”

Trump is reacting with such panic because this is indeed a story that will draw attention before the election. Americans care about respect for our troops. Other media outlets picked up the story almost instantly. It is spreading far and wide.

Trump’s contempt for the troops and inability to recognize their sacrifice, outlined in Goldberg’s story, almost exactly echoes one of Trump’s very first actions as president and commander in chief. On January 21, 2017, Trump went to the headquarters of the Central Intelligence Agency and spoke in front of the Wall of Heroes, stars carved into marble, one for each of the 117 CIA agents who have died serving America. Two of those stars are for Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods, both former Navy SEALs killed in the attack on the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi, Libya, in 2012.

In front of that wall, considered hallowed ground by CIA employees, to an audience of hand-picked attendees, Trump launched one of his now-trademark speeches. He complained about the unfair media, lashed out at his critics, and boasted about the size of the crowd at his inauguration. Former CIA Director John Brennan called that speech, in that location, “despicable.”

But that story faded quickly. Three and a half years ago, we did not yet know what it meant to be ruled by a man who does not understand the concept of, as Kelly’s friend put it, “doing something for someone other than himself… when there’s no direct personal gain to be had.” Now we do.

While the story from January 2017 did not last, this one seems to be catching fire.

Report
Heffalooomia · 04/09/2020 12:07

Trump is reacting with such panic
Way to go donnie boy...keep on hammering that big ole nail into your coffin

Report
Lweji · 04/09/2020 12:22
Report
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 04/09/2020 12:27

I'd pay no attention to day-to-day figures at this point: like the covid ones, they don't mean much except in a much longer-term context. For instance the NASDAQ is all over the place day to day, with an overall slightly downward trend again at the moment I think after the collapse earlier this year and then the strange rise recently. Same for polls, same for bookmakers.

VeryLittleOwl, I agree the bookmakers are more often right than the pollsters, this century, but they certainly called it wrong in 2016: www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-win-sparks-betting-armageddon-as-bookies-get-election-wrong-2016-11-09

Report
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 04/09/2020 13:10

Incidentally, this (about QAnon, sort-of, but the beginning is about polls) is an interesting blog post: www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2020/09/03/no-one-really-believes-in-qanon/

Report
HoldMyLobster · 04/09/2020 14:00

Going back to the ballot thing.

When you vote using a mail-in or absentee ballot, you sign the outer envelope, and that's what's checked when the ballot is received. Once your vote has been accepted, the envelope is kept, your name is marked as having voted.

The inner envelope containing the ballot is opened separately and your vote recorded, so that your vote is secret.

If you want to find out if your vote has been tallied, you don't need to go to the polls and try to vote again as Trump suggested.

You go to the Secretary of State's website for your state, where you can see when your request for a ballot was received, when the ballot was issued, when the ballot was received back from you, and whether or not the ballot was accepted or rejected.

If rejected it will have a reason why your ballot was rejected.

Meanwhile the rejected ballot remains in the outer envelope, with the reason for its rejection marked on the envelope, and it is not counted.

You'd think the president of the United States might actually know this about elections, especially considering he keeps going on about how open to fraud they are...

And yet instead he's encouraging voters to break the law by trying to vote again, even though they could have just checked online whether their vote had been accepted.

Report
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 04/09/2020 14:12

Thank you for this absolutely clear explanation,
HoldMyLobster.

I had a strong feeling Trump was bullshitting as usual, but it is good to have that confirmed.

Meanwhile, Trump's denial that he has called people who were killed, wounded or captured in war (which they didn't necessarily volunteer for: he presumably does know about the draft, since he went to trouble to dodge it) "losers" and "suckers" is one of the very few times I remember him denying something that he had actually been accused of, rather than pre-emptively denying accusations which had not yet been made.

Report
TheNorthWestPawsage · 04/09/2020 14:16

So I guess this time the Trump story goes...

Many large men in uniform have walked up to me with tears in their eyes and said “Sir, thank you for calling our war dead losers.”

OP posts:
Report
Lweji · 04/09/2020 14:19

It won't have an effect on the election, but whose approach is winning the immigration game? Angela's or Donald's?

www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/09/04/merkel-trump-migration-europe/

Report
AcrossthePond55 · 04/09/2020 15:12

Calif's procedures are the same as Lobstah's state.

IF a person showed up at the polls insisting they hadn't gotten their ballot or whatever, they're given a special provisional ballot which is held separate from the general ballot box with the 'double envelope' like a mailed ballot. They're listed in the 'voter book' as 'provisional'.

When everything is taken back to voter HQ the provisional ballots are held until the mail in deadline has passed and the mail ins are all counted & the list 'ticked'. They then compare the 'mail in' list with the uncounted 'provisional' list/ballots. If your mail in envelope was 'ticked' on the list as returned your provisional ballot is discarded. If your name isn't ticked on the 'mail in' list, your provisional ballot is counted. Remember, this all happens after the mail in deadline. So, either way no voting twice.

So, if one did manage to cast 2 votes (and I can see one way to do it), there IS a mechanism to catch those cheaters. Just wish they'd follow up and fine them.

Report
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 04/09/2020 15:45

Trump has produced no evidence of any kind that mail-in ballot fraud is common; I have seen a fair amount of evidence that it is not, as well as two accounts now of procedures which make it very unlikely.

The balance of probability seems to be against Trump.

(Colour me deeply unsurprised.)

Report
AcrossthePond55 · 04/09/2020 17:01

His bullshit 'pronouncements' are becoming very obvious nowadays Asking. My personal favourite is "Biden is against God". I don't think he'll ever top that one.

At around 0.23 in this video.

thehill.com/homenews/administration/510900-trump-claims-biden-is-against-god


His method is:
1-Make a bullshit statement in speech or interview
2-Allow it to be circulated in the media/online for a few days
3-when the initial reports have died down then say "someone (or they) said" or "I heard" conveniently forgetting that HE was the source of the bullshit in the first place.

Report
lionheart · 04/09/2020 17:06

I think they are scrambling to 'defend' him against the latest allegations. Unfortunately for him there is plenty of other evidence to tell people what he thinks of the military.

Report
lionheart · 04/09/2020 17:10

eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/09/04/trump-and-stars-and-stripes-attacking-american-icon-column/5706859002/

'Even for those of us who are all too wearily familiar with President Donald Trump’s disdain for journalists, his administration’s latest attack on the free press is a bit of a jaw-dropper.

In a heretofore unpublicized recent memo, the Pentagon delivered an order to shutter Stars and Stripes, a newspaper that has been a lifeline and a voice for American troops since the Civil War. The memo orders the publisher of the news organization (which now publishes online as well as in print) to present a plan that “dissolves the Stars and Stripes” by Sept. 15 including "specific timeline for vacating government owned/leased space worldwide.”'

Report
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 04/09/2020 17:17

Hang on: I thought he wanted the forces' votes? Or is he afraid the newspaper might not be 100% pro-Trump? I mean, has it got form for criticising him or not being fulsome enough in his praise or just ignoring him or something?

Report
Anniegetyourgun · 04/09/2020 17:20

If there's any purpose other than sowing more doubt and suspicion about the balloting process, and perhaps hoping a few of his supporters do manage to get an extra vote in, it could be he hopes to cause a lot of hold-ups at the polling stations when crowds of would-be second voters get in the queue and argue with the supervisors. Then the whole thing is held up further while the extra votes are checked and re-counted and he'll go "I told you it would all take too long," and demand the result is declared immediately because the longer the count goes on, obviously the more it benefits... er.

Nah, probably just madness.

Report
Anniegetyourgun · 04/09/2020 17:22

Sorry, cross-posted with the thing about the Forces newspaper. Cage rattled yet again. It seems he is just throwing wild actions and accusations about all over the place to keep people confused. Well it worked for the last four years - the crazier it all gets, the less anyone seems to know what to do about it.

Report
HoldMyLobster · 04/09/2020 17:36

@Anniegetyourgun

If there's any purpose other than sowing more doubt and suspicion about the balloting process, and perhaps hoping a few of his supporters do manage to get an extra vote in, it could be he hopes to cause a lot of hold-ups at the polling stations when crowds of would-be second voters get in the queue and argue with the supervisors. Then the whole thing is held up further while the extra votes are checked and re-counted and he'll go "I told you it would all take too long," and demand the result is declared immediately because the longer the count goes on, obviously the more it benefits... er.

Nah, probably just madness.

Oh dear god. I hadn't even thought about this, but I wouldn't even be surprised at this point.
Report
AcrossthePond55 · 04/09/2020 17:44

OMG! The Stars & Stripes was my dad's lifeline in WWII, my uncles' lifeline in Korea, and my cousins' (plural) lifelines in Nam. And it was my lifeline as a military wife in the '70s. It was the best source of news and like a 'letter from home'. I can't believe this!

I hope to God someone or some media mogul stumps up the money to keep the S&S going. This is a travesty.

Report
lionheart · 04/09/2020 18:06

It's not going down well at all--so many saying just what you said Across.

www.stripes.com/news/us/bipartisan-group-of-senators-urges-esper-to-keep-funding-stars-and-stripes-1.643650


Meanwhile:

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/trump-biden-older-facebook-ads_n_5f515dcfc5b6946f3eaf3fbe?ri18n=true

'President Donald Trump’s campaign launched a series of Facebook ads on Thursday featuring a manipulated photo of his presidential opponent Joe Biden edited to make the former vice president appear older.'

Report
AcrossthePond55 · 04/09/2020 19:05

Good to hear that lion and thanks for the link. I don't know why this has hit me so hard but it has. I haven't even seen a copy of S&S since a friend (USAF) brought one home 30 years ago from Saudi during the 1st Gulf War to show us because his unit was profiled.

Looks like lots of GOP legislators (including L Graham) are sending letters to and calling Esper.

Two of our ex-military ex-friends are 'Super Trumpers' and I wonder what they think of this but I'm going to let that lie. They both belong to an extremely right wing (and nasty) forum and I used to occasionally 'go to the dark side' to see what they'd posted but I won't anymore. A few months ago I started getting 'targeted' ads and even spam emails from some truly nasty fringe groups. I saw that cookies had been planted (since deleted) and assume it was because I went to that website.

Report
Lweji · 04/09/2020 19:10

Don't bring me the crippled. They don't look good.

Will the veterans be Trump's private email server?

www.businessinsider.com/trump-didnt-want-wounded-veterans-military-parade-report-2020-9

Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

BoreOfWhabylon · 04/09/2020 19:10

I'm astonished at the S&S decision. Is the paper known for being critical of the Pentagon/Scrotus?

Report
lionheart · 04/09/2020 20:23

"I’d take my wheelchair and titanium legs over Donald Trump’s supposed bone spurs any day,” Sen. Tammy Duckworth (D-Ill.)

Report
GetTheDoorFrank · 04/09/2020 20:23
Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.