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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Does he realise what he done?

73 replies

LocketsandSoothers · 27/08/2020 16:54

This maybe potentially triggering

This is going to be a long one, so bare with me. I don’t even know why this has bothered me so much after 15 years (for the first time I’m angry as opposed to ashamed & sad but truthfully not giving it as much thought as I think I should have.)

For context, which I think is relevant as it’s so small & backward, I live in a small country parish in Northern Ireland. (I have named changed for this and will change again after replying to any comments).

When I was in my early 20s and at Uni in Belfast I started texting a local lad, he’d been after me for ages trying to get my number etc. So we’d text each other fairly regularly over the period of about 2 months. I’d kissed him maybe twice when we ended up bumping into each other at after a night out but never made any plans to meet up. It was just a flirt, never suggestive or anything further than a quick kiss. He seemed like the perfect gentleman although my friends didn’t like him.

One week night when I was up at university I arrived home from the pub (a bit tipsy) when I got a call from him out of the blue saying he’d been in a nightclub in Belfast and his taxi home left without him & could he crash at mine. (Next morning I found out this was not true, he actually was staying at his friends house in Belfast). Being a local lad I said yes of course, it was freezing that night. He sat with my friend & I, chatting on my bed. After she went to bed it was just me & him we jumped into my bed to sleep. I obviously expected that’d we’d kiss and cuddle but after a few minute he got on top of me and starting putting his hand down my under wear. I tried to stop him but but he pinned me down and forced himself inside me. He knew I was resisting him but said things like “don’t be like that now”, like it was game and I was playing hard to get. Tears starting rolling down my cheeks and he was irritated that I was crying. I stopped physically resisting at the point as it was too late. He finished inside me, with no condom, and tried to hide that he had ejaculated. He seemed more embarrassed that he had finished early than anything else. Then rolled over and fell asleep. I was so shocked at what happened I just lay there. I didn’t call out for help to my flat mates I was just so stunned that it had actually happened.

While far from a virgin, I would never have slept with a local lad without being in a relationship. The local gossip is awful.

He got up the next morning and acted normally, as did I. From then on he completely blanked me, apart from the local football team buddies nudging him & clapping his back if I ran into them. At the time this is what upset me most - local people thinking I had a one night stand with him. I was so ashamed and embarrassed. If I ever bumped into him I hid, thankfully our paths don’t cross too much.

Part of me feels he didn’t even stop to think it was wrong, but then I think I was bloody crying. How could he not have known? ...maybe the fact I didn’t shout for help. Maybe the fact I allowed him into my bed. Ugh. Maybe I encouraged it.

So my AIBU is, was this rape and did he realise what he done?

OP posts:
Manolin · 27/08/2020 19:14

Rape is not apologised because you live in a small sweet parish.

Rape is not apologised because on a normal day the local boy is a sweet guy, helping his parents mow the lawn, attend church or carry groceries to the pensioners at home.

Rape can never apologised when tears are rolling down your cheeks because what you are saying is 'Stop'. Rape can never be apologised Full Stop.

You consented at no time.

Jaxhog · 27/08/2020 20:01

You said no and he carried on anyway. That is the very definition of rape. I'm so sorry.

HerNameWasEliza · 27/08/2020 20:57

You need all 3. We have 2 here and a strong case. However they were drinking, so if he was drunk for example, HE couldnt consent. That is why you cant call him a rapist and now you see why the CPS have such low conviction rates.

What would he need to consent to given that she didn't do anything to him? Consent to her fighting him off? Consent to her giving up fighting and crying?

HerNameWasEliza · 27/08/2020 21:01

@ heartache. This from current uK law re rape and sexual offences act so I don't think you are right to say "Before we start shaming the man, to prove rape, you have to prove HE knew she wasnt consenting. We havent got his version of events, so we have no idea." Actually it seems he has to prove that he thought she was consenting. Which clearly given what the OP has said, he couldn't. Getting into bed with him is not consent to sex. Kissing is not consent to sex. She did nothing to indicate consent to sex.

The Act abolished the Morgan defence of a genuine though unreasonably mistaken belief as to the consent of the complainant. The defendant (A) has the responsibility to ensure that (B) consents to the sexual activity at the time in question. It will be important for the police to ask the offender in interview what steps (s)he took to satisfy him or herself that the complainant consented in order to show his or her state of mind at the time.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 27/08/2020 21:04

@heartache590

Wtf? So?? It doesn't matter what he expected, OP did not consent!

In law it does. Rape is when the alleged intentionally commits the offence, the complainant does not consent AND the alleged REASONABLY does not believe the complainant consents.

You need all 3. We have 2 here and a strong case. However they were drinking, so if he was drunk for example, HE couldnt consent. That is why you cant call him a rapist and now you see why the CPS have such low conviction rates.

This is total bollocks. For one thing, you have conveniently omitted the next line of the Act, which is:

2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents

Using the example of a man raping a woman (as the commonest scenario), the man is not allowed just to assume that the woman consents, unless he has good reason to think otherwise, as you seem to think.

And the fact that the man was drinking does not lower the threshold for him to seek consent - you are confusing victim and perpetrator. If the woman is very drunk, she may be unable to give consent. It is different for the man. Funnily enough, the law doesn't say, 'Oh go ahead and rape whoever you like, as long as you're drunk enough not to be able to tell if she consents".

And, none of this matters anyway, because this is Mumsnet, not a criminal court. The OP describes being raped. Maybe save your Judge John Deed fantasies for another occasion?

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 27/08/2020 21:08

@HerNameWasEliza

@ heartache. This from current uK law re rape and sexual offences act so I don't think you are right to say "Before we start shaming the man, to prove rape, you have to prove HE knew she wasnt consenting. We havent got his version of events, so we have no idea." Actually it seems he has to prove that he thought she was consenting. Which clearly given what the OP has said, he couldn't. Getting into bed with him is not consent to sex. Kissing is not consent to sex. She did nothing to indicate consent to sex.

The Act abolished the Morgan defence of a genuine though unreasonably mistaken belief as to the consent of the complainant. The defendant (A) has the responsibility to ensure that (B) consents to the sexual activity at the time in question. It will be important for the police to ask the offender in interview what steps (s)he took to satisfy him or herself that the complainant consented in order to show his or her state of mind at the time.

The law is different in Northern Ireland, but it's still not sufficient just to assume consent, unless proven otherwise, as heartache seems to think.
ShouldWeChangeTheBulb · 27/08/2020 21:41

He raped you.
He is a rapist.
You did nothing wrong and were not encouraging him to rape you.
If you had reacted by hitting out screaming etc you could have putting yourself at more risk. This is why we (women) are programmed to freeze and placate our attackers rather than fight. The way you responded is a very typical reaction to being raped under the circumstances you describe. Be kind to yourself and if you can talk to people in RL that you can trust not to minimise what happened to you.

HerNameWasEliza · 27/08/2020 22:10

The law is different in Northern Ireland, but it's still not sufficient just to assume consent, unless proven otherwise, as heartache seems to think.

I didn't know that. It sounds like the consent issue is much the same though, as you say.

Newmumatlast · 28/08/2020 00:31

It was rape Flowers

Anordinarymum · 28/08/2020 00:37

Gosh yes it was rape, and if it bothers you then you need to do something about it to free it from your mind - and the guilt - which you should not be feeling.

I wonder how many other girls he did this to? Nice girls like yourself who did nothing about it because of the fuss.

Poppyisa · 28/08/2020 00:38

I’m so sorry this happened to you. He did it, he knows what he did, and has possibly spun it differently to his friends. But without a doubt, it was rape.

Your friends didn’t like him, they perhaps had an idea he was horrible. And the way he treated seems like he knows and is ashamed. He should be ashamed, he’s a rapist and a criminal.

Consider talking to someone IRL. Please. Again, I’m so sorry. I hope someone is helping you get thru the days.

LocketsandSoothers · 28/08/2020 11:48

Thank you everyone for listening to me ramble yesterday, it actually helped so much just to let it all out. I really appreciate all the replies. I just couldn’t physically bring myself to speak out to someone in person. I don’t like crying in front of anyone. ...and for the first time since it happened I shed a few tears over it yesterday, now I feel refreshed.

I knew I would never report it, I just couldn’t ...and there are so many facets as to why. First of all I know it would never get a conviction, there wouldn’t be enough to sway a jury beyond all reasonable doubt (if it even got that far) plus I don’t couldn’t cope with character assassination by the defence. Second of all, with it being such a small community absolutely everyone would know who I was. Plus we live in bandit country which adds another dimension to involving police in anything.

In the years since he has started a business with his father that means he is in & out of my parents business regularly and developed quite a rapport with them which makes me feel so uncomfortable. My parents don’t even know that I know him. When his brother died my mum made him tea & comforted him at work one day, which makes me want to vomit. (If she knew she’d scald him sooner). It feels violating all over again.

I think if one day I could not hide when I see him, but look him dead straight in eye until he looks away I’d feel like I had my power back. Maybe that sounds stupid

OP posts:
newtb · 28/08/2020 11:52

Definitely rape

Thatbliddywoman · 28/08/2020 12:18

If that's not rape, I don't know what is.Flowers

CausingChaos2 · 28/08/2020 12:32

It was definitely rape. Please seek some counselling, I am having counselling now for a rape that happened over 10 years ago. It’s never too late, especially if it is resurfacing for you now.

Hailtomyteeth · 28/08/2020 15:02

Counselling, then look him in the eye. When you do that, know that there are countless women standing with you. Men do this. Men must stop.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 28/08/2020 15:19

you sound stronger today OP, I'm really glad the thread helped.

FWIW I think it's completely fine to not report - as you say the chances of conviction are vanishingly small and the process will re-traumatise you all over again.

But counselling is still a good idea. Whatever you do, I hope you find peace and yes, @Hailtomyteeth's image of you standing up and looking him in the eye, with us all on your shoulder, is powerful.

lazarusb · 28/08/2020 15:53

I'm glad you are feeling that your load is a little lighter. I so think counselling would be a good idea - you could do it online if you didn't feel you could do it locally.

When you get to the day where you can stand and look in him the eye, know that there are thousands of us standing with you. Just because no words are spoken doesn't mean it didn't happen. He can't undo his past. He knows what he did and how he behaved with his friends afterwards.

Quite how he can face your parents I have no idea. But that isn't your problem Flowers

candycane222 · 28/08/2020 16:32

I'm right by your shoulder Lockets. I was raped 40 years ago by a bus driver (still in his uniform!) who offered me a lift, in a foreign country. I didn't report as I feared the police would have a go themselves (even if I'd managed to get over the language barrier) so I completely understand about not reporting.

I struggled for a while too, with feeling I should have done more to 'resist' but I made peace with myself long long since. It's all on society's disgusting pretence that women are in some way, there to be 'done' by men. It isn't on us, not one tiny bit.

But if I saw him again (highly unlikely, luckily for me) I would like to imagine you at my shoulder as we coldly looked him in the eye. So I am here at yours.

katy1213 · 28/08/2020 16:45

Would it help to confide in your mum? Then at least your parents could drop the business contact and you wouldn't fear bumping into him at home. As you say, no point reporting it now. But if you do run into him, stand tall, look him in the eye and give him a look of such shrivelling disdain that he will crawl under a stone.

Isthisnothing · 28/08/2020 17:03

Op I am so sorry. It was rape, plain and simple. Your description is chilling - the description of how he spoke to you and the guys slapping him on the back brought tears to my eyes.

He absolutely knows.

I know exactly what you mean about getting to the stage where you can look him in the eye. You have faced up to this but he hasn't. You are the strong one. He is the coward in denial about who he is.

I urge you to contact the rape crisis centre and or find a counsellor to talk all this out with.

Isthisnothing · 28/08/2020 17:04

And like the pp said I am standing beside you when you look him in the eye.

EnjoyingTheSilence · 28/08/2020 21:39

That doesn’t sound stupid at all @LocketsandSoothers. I was assaulted by someone and for one reason or another I had to see him again a few months later, he actually hid from me. His wife was there with their child and I think he was terrified I was going to say something. I really did feel I had the power back that day. Obviously I can’t guaranteed the same outcome for you, but just wanted to let you know it’s ok and it might help

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