To have felt a bit sorry for this shoplifter / drug addict?

[Estelvia]

I was in savers this afternoon and a man was caught trying to steal. The staff got the items back before escorting him out of the shop, as he was being lead out of the door he was pleading with them saying that he's ill / withdrawing and needs 'dark' (which is slang for heroin)

The employee told him to sling his hook and get a job, cue some swearing from him and calling them knob heads among other things.

We saw him walk up the highstreet and into Holland and Barretts where he presumably tried the same thing.

My initial thought was "scumbag" but then it hit me just how desperate somebody must be to resort to that and what an miserable existence it is having to steal to ward off painful withdrawals. I'm not condoning theft or any other crimes they commit to fund the habit.

Do you have any sympathy for these types of people?

I’ve worked in retail and dealt with shoplifters and there is something pitiful about the addicts - everything is secondary to the utter desperation for that day’s fix. They come in first thing, trying to get anything they can sell - they know that they’ll be recognised but they don’t care. Any sense of pride or fear of the consequences or consideration for the impact on others is gone. It’s just this hollow desperation. And of course we all pay in higher prices and the costs of social breakdown.
Drug laws in this country need an overhaul because at the moment all they’re doing is criminalising the people at the bottom of the chain, whilst the big fish get away with millions.

@TheBouquets

There is so much talk of how today's addicts have had some trauma which made them start taking drugs. There seems to be so many reasons why they became drug addicts. The two youngish males who I know took drugs and committed suicide, one was from a very privileged background and was caught in possession of drugs, perhaps enough to supply others in the privileged situation. The other was an actor, not short of money and with a doting mother and other loving family. I have no idea why they chose to involve themselves in drugs. I look at the people laying about on the pavements of the nearby city and I wonder about their backgrounds. Then I think about the people who fought in the last War and how they were only teenagers. I know one man who was a prisoner of war and others who must have seen horrific events. A lot of those in the war joined the Emergency Services (key workers as they are known today). They must have seen awful sights even after the war. I did not know a single one of those people ever take drugs. There were people at home during the war wondering if husbands and sons would come home alive and worried if they and the children would survive the bombings, trying to feed the household on very little. I didnt know any of them to take drugs. Why are the people of today so eager to turn to drugs at the least wee thing. I have been stressed, worried seen horrible things but never once did I think drugs were going to cure any of my problems. I dont know what the answer is but I think it is a losing battle now. There should have been more serious penalties right from the start of the drugs scene.

Did people not have drink problems in the olden days though? Heroin is relatively recent - though opium has been around for longer - but alcoholism isn't a new thing by a long shot. I'm sure there were alcoholics around in the '40s.

I've had some bad stuff happen - I'm not sure whether Mumsnet would consider it bad though - and I've never used drink or drugs as a means of escape. I'm too frightened of what it might do to me and seeing what alcohol did to my mum put me right off. I'm not a big drinker as it is. I have done drugs in the past but only occasionally and I wouldn't touch heroin with a barge pole. It's not worth it.

One thing I think would help a lot is if the NHS weren’t so averse to prescribing medications deemed as addictive. I was raped a few years ago. I went to the GP after a few weeks literally begging in tears for a weeks supply of sleeping tablets because I was barely sleeping and when I did I’d have horrendous nightmares and wake up panicking. I only wanted 1 weeks supply (I didn’t want to get hooked on them myself). Just so I could get a few nights of rest. I was refused. If that night someone had offered me something and said “here take this and you’ll sleep” I would have been sorely tempted. And I’m a middle aged woman with a career etc. If I’d been young with no real responsibilities I probably would have sought out something illegal myself!

MH services are cut to the bone. Nobody can get the help they need. GP’s won’t prescribe drugs like diazepam or sleeping tablets, which can be very helpful in the short term. But even if someone did get hooked what’s worse? Being hooked on diazepam or heroin? At least with a prescribed drug you’d get more help weaning off it and it’s less dangerous etc. Of course GP’s shouldn’t hand out these medications like candy but you can’t tell a traumatised person they need to wait god knows how long for a few counselling sessions, refuse them any medication and then expect them to be ok.

@TorgosPizza

It must be a miserable life, but then you see people acting like you're a pathetic no-life snowflake if you have a problem with even "light" drug use and alcohol abuse. You're a judgmental bore if you don't think it's perfectly normal to dabble in drugs as a youth, but how dare you not have sympathy for the (sometimes) inevitable result of drug use. (Not inevitable for all, but by the time you find out who's who, it's too late to stop.)

People who end up as addicts didn't just wake up that way one morning. It's the result of a lifetime of poor choices. Sometimes it's helped along by trauma or genetic predisposition, no doubt, but at some point we all have to bear a degree of responsibility for our personal choices.

I feel sorrier for people who are hurt by (or even just terrified by) drug addicts than I do for the addicts themselves.

Yep. I know people who are like that, they think you're boring if you don't drink or do drugs and they pressure you to get drunk. Yea, fuck off. I like not having hangovers and I don't need to be off my cake to have a good time. I like being in control as well.

And it’s an insult to genuine abuse victims who have never turned to drugs and crime and hidden behind the justification that they had an abusive childhood. This is an awful thing to say imo. We all have different experiences and circumstances in our lives. We all respond differently to things.

To be honest I have abuse, rape, mental health problems and functioning alcoholism in my past. Since the recent robbery at my shop, I'd be lying if I haven't had thoughts of 'fuck it, there's no point in staying sober and working hard if some addict can come and take it away from me at the drop of a hat'. I used to love getting drunk and high and could, in a vacuum, do it all day everyday if my behaviour didn't have an impact on the people around me.

I hate that someone felt they had the right to take my property and leave me to deal with the anxiety and fear that it may happen again. It's resurfaced a lot of old emotions around lack of control (rape) that I'd hoped were in my past.

Having lost a parent and a close family member through heroin it is a painful way of life and not just for the addict. Watching my 3 brothers and sisters distraught all under 15 at my fathers funeral makes me angry that this is still going on.

It's easy to judge but I do sympathise sometimes. This makes me think of a situation that happened where I live.

A few years back a car crashed into a house in the middle of town. Went right through the window and everyone in our little village was talking about it. Thankfully no was hurt. Everyone was cursing the driver saying they were a drunk or a druggy and a scumbag etc.
At the exact same time, Ant McPartlin was in the news after crashing his car whilst drink driving. And everyone was saying how sad it was the he had these troubles, that he wasn't a bad person and just needed help.
It made me realise there's such a double standard and I often think twice now before jumping to conclusions.

People feel sorry for abused children and those afflicted with terrible mental illnesses. They don't feel sorry for addicts. They seem to forget that one is truly the father of the other. Not always, but very commonly.

Of course I wouldn’t have sympathy. Taking drugs was their choice and landed them in this mess; now they have to face the consequences of that poor decision.

I do.
There’s a story behind every single one of them.

@Thatbliddywoman

People feel sorry for abused children and those afflicted with terrible mental illnesses. They don't feel sorry for addicts. They seem to forget that one is truly the father of the other. Not always, but very commonly.

You can’t compare the two at all. Abused children are children, those with mental illness are stuck in an unfortunate situation.

An addict is a grown addict who made the choice not only to start taking drugs/smoking/gambling/drinking etc. but then to continue. You can’t use your past as an excuse for poor decisions.

They have to sort themselves out and stop wallowing, not play the victim and expect others to fix them.

About third of people who were abused as kids grow up to be abusers. Are we feeling sorry for them too? Or is the "awww, so sad" reserved only for people who take some substance? Because addicts can absolutely make others' lives misery. They can absolutely ruin lives. They absolutely do.

I’m afraid I find it very difficult to sympathise with. They have actively made the choice to deal with their traumas by using drugs.
There are plenty of other options but they actively chose to do drugs and so I have a lot of sympathy for the victims of their crimes and the shopkeepers who have to deal with them but not drug addicts themselves.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

About third of people who were abused as kids grow up to be abusers. Are we feeling sorry for them too? Or is the "awww, so sad" reserved only for people who take some substance? Because addicts can absolutely make others' lives misery. They can absolutely ruin lives. They absolutely do.

I've thought this before @SchrodingersImmigrant. I knew a man who was abused as a child, who was found with child abuse images on his computer. Did we feel sorry for him? Well, yes, I felt sorry for the little boy who was abused and definitely felt sadness about the waste of life, as he had turned into a man with very little potential to do anything good with his life.

I will say though, he also took a lot of drugs. Not heroin, but other things. People were a lot less offended by his drug use than they were the images he had.

The thing about addiction, is, people thinking drinking alcohol and sometimes taking party drugs, is supposed to be fine. But people, even moderate drinkers, are imbibing an addictive poison. If you think about that, why would anyone condone alcohol consumption at all. Surely, any consumption is risky, because it is an addictive poison. Expecting people to be able to control themselves when they are regularly consuming an addictive poison is unrealistic.

I drink moderately myself, (although reading that back, I do question why).

I suppose the issue is, when do people cross over from a few drinks at the weekend, to drinking a lot, to weed, to coke, to harder drugs, to being a hardened addict. I wonder when the element of choice disappears. At what point?

Well, yes, I felt sorry for the little boy who was abused and definitely felt sadness about the waste of life, as he had turned into a man with very little potential to do anything good with his life.

Sorry, but obviously, on the other hand, he had images of child abuse on his computer, so we didn't feel sorry for him as the adult who downloaded them.

People stealing because they need to eat and can afford it; yes i feel sympathy
People stealing to get high: f off. No sympathy at all. Maybe if it was a once off but clearly not the case as you discribed.

Excuse lack of question marks as well - it's too early!

I suppose the issue is, when do people cross over from a few drinks at the weekend, to drinking a lot, to weed, to coke, to harder drugs, to being a hardened addict. I wonder when the element of choice disappears. At what point?

I don't think it does. Because you can't do anything about it unless the person wants to stop. They have to make an active choice to stop, which imho suggests that it is also a choice to not stop.

I get it, it's hard. Withdrawal is hard, it is on your mind basically all the time, but well. Live isn't easy overall🤷🏻 It is in the end a selfish choice of making everyone else's lives misery, rather than being bit miserable themselves.

I don't know if sympathy is the right word. I have empathy I think, or I am empathetic to their situation normally. I had a bit of a misspent youth and although I didn't do any drugs I was around a lot of people in varying stages of addiction and many of them have now been in full blown heroin sink holes for years,

I have empathy towards them and it makes me sad. I know that usually very little can be done though and it's a horrible circle of addiction, crime and death. I've been to too many funerals of people who have had drug related deaths.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

I suppose the issue is, when do people cross over from a few drinks at the weekend, to drinking a lot, to weed, to coke, to harder drugs, to being a hardened addict. I wonder when the element of choice disappears. At what point?

I don't think it does. Because you can't do anything about it unless the person wants to stop. They have to make an active choice to stop, which imho suggests that it is also a choice to not stop.

I get it, it's hard. Withdrawal is hard, it is on your mind basically all the time, but well. Live isn't easy overall🤷🏻 It is in the end a selfish choice of making everyone else's lives misery, rather than being bit miserable themselves.

Yes, I suppose I mean, when does it become likely that you will end up an addict? Is it when you start drinking too much, or is it when you have your first line of coke, or is it when you decide to try harder drugs? Also, if the opportunity presents itself at exactly the right / wrong time; when you're already at rock bottom and someone sidles up to you all friendly and says, "here, have this. It will make this all stop. It's free [this time]".

We all have moments of weakness, so I can see how it happens, although I also agree that ultimately, it is a choice, and, as I said up thread, it's very easy for naice middle class people to declare their sympathy from a position of safety. Much harder when you are faced with addicts at their most desperate and most aggressive. I think most people's sympathy would wane a little in those circumstances.

@Stefoscope I’m so sorry.

I was burgled a few years ago. It was a smash and grab - they nicked my computer (which I needed for my job), a hoodie I loved (to wrap the computer in) and a Star of David necklace. No idea who did it but wouldn’t be surprised if it was some junkie looking for stuff to sell for a fix. It’s hard to be sympathetic when you can’t do your job and you’re terrified they might come back. I’m just glad I was at work.

You feel sorry for them because they stole from a supermarket and you believe that's no loss to a big store. If it had been you that was stolen from, would you be then feeling sorry for him? Thought so.

I'd be sorry he was having a hard life but nothing makes stealing acceptable

Yeah I feel sorry for him, but he doesn't have the right to steal obviously. Our society really isn't set up to solve these types of issues.

@ZolaGrey you nailed it. It is possible to have empathy and also to be angry with people who hurt others to get their fix. My brother had cancer when Mum had a drink problem and I don’t think he ever forgave her because he feels she let him down when he needed her the most. She got drunk on my 30th birthday. That hurt. And while she has been through a lot of shit, I did get angry one time when she was moaning on about my dad after a binge and said to her, “He wouldn’t want to see you like this. Now get in the fucking shower.”

tl;dr you can have empathy for an addict and also be angry with them.