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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU that we must accept many teachers do not have the appropriate professional judgment regarding what students need to achieve for A-Levels?

308 replies

darkwader · 13/08/2020 12:49

There is no reason to suggest that nationally this year’s students are different significantly to previous years – certainly not as demonstrated by GCSE results.

Unclear why, but exam boards have been generous in this years results in all categories, showing higher results than last year, but needing to downgrade almost 40% of teacher assessed grade to remotely be a normal year.

Despite what teachers are claiming, it must be the case that 40% of grades were inflated by teachers – even if the individual students who had these inflated grades are hard to determine. The number of A/A*’s would not jump by 10%.

If every teacher had correctly provided grades, then the national mix would match previous years and no downgrading would have occurred. – so although maybe not the teacher who is specifically involved with a set of students; overall teachers are responsible for the disappointment because of poor grade assessment in the first place in aggregate.

Given that teachers have been predicting grades for university entrance for years and marking coursework in some cases – this shows the unfairness of such a system, as they are incapable of doing so to any degree of accuracy or potentially without bias towards those they know.

Students across this country are now being affected by this incompetence – even if not the students own teacher, the professional standards are to blame.

AIBU to now understand that this professional judgment does not exists for many, many teachers and they need to be evaluated each year before being allowed to be involved in marking and grading?

If AIBU - what am I missing?

OP posts:
itsgettingweird · 14/08/2020 08:37

@SmileEachDay

The schools that will be heavily penalised are rapidly improving ones unfortunately

That would be my school. 🤦🏻‍♀️

Our rapid improvement was heavily praised by ofsted last year. The irony!

This will be my catchment school.

Ds didn't go there.

Very mixed school and very heavily deprived socio economy area. The 2 main junior schools that feed into it are miles apart in terms of sats.

Also feeds a very middle class village built but many of the students don't go because of reputation.

Last year the results were much improved.

Stands to reason this years cohort would do even better because they had 2 years of the better teaching.

Except that won't be allowed because the years before that things were dire.

OublietteBravo · 14/08/2020 08:40

I’m really worried about GCSEs. There was a recent switch from 3-tier to 2-tier here. This is the first GCSE cohort for the former middle schools - there are no previous GCSE results for these schools. And the former upper schools have very different cohorts too - because a large chunk of students who would’ve gone there stayed at their middle school.

Hercwasonaroll · 14/08/2020 08:41

Piggy I can't quite get my head round that. Does the grade distribution supercede the PA? Or is the PA part of the distribution calculation and not used later on.

borntobequiet · 14/08/2020 08:42

Lots of people have missed out on health diagnostic tests and treatments because of Covid.
It's a good thing no one in the DoH has picked up on the idea of allocating diagnoses and treatments via an algorithm. After all, doctors don't always get it right, do they?
I do like a farfetched analogy

Iamnotthe1 · 14/08/2020 08:43

@Piggywaspushed

So, I have 25 in my GCSE class.

Last years results (22 in class) were all 9 -4 with one 2. Lots of 8s and 7s in particular.

But now I am really worried as those were high prior attainers. The two lower prior attainers last year got a 2 and a 3 (an there was another who may have got a 4 or 5). I am no worried all my prior lower attainers in he 2020 group will 'have' to be given 2s and 3s! And I definitely gave one a CAG of 5. The 9 I have awarded does not have the same level of PA as last year's 9.

I know I am not explaining this well but I just don't see how the algorithm can work with two groups of similar size but with astonishingly different prior attainment figures.

My understanding is that they are grouping PA so the individual figures don't matter as much. There'll just be higher, middle, lower. If your 9 this year falls into the higher PA then it might not matter that their individual PA is lower than your previous 9.

My understanding could be wrong though.

Iamnotthe1 · 14/08/2020 08:44

@Hercwasonaroll

Piggy I can't quite get my head round that. Does the grade distribution supercede the PA? Or is the PA part of the distribution calculation and not used later on.
I thought it was the latter.
SmileEachDay · 14/08/2020 08:52

OublietteBravo

I think I’m right in saying that if there are no previous results - as is the case in a new school - then the CAGs would be used?

Hercwasonaroll · 14/08/2020 08:55

Iam that's what I thought too. These ten bandings they have split the students into using PA are quite wide so hopefully you're right that the actual PA won't matter, just the banding.

Hercwasonaroll · 14/08/2020 08:56

@SmileEachDay That hasn't happened at A level.

I have a new qualification so I'll let you know what happens on results day!

SmileEachDay · 14/08/2020 08:57

That hasn't happened at A level

What have they based the algorithm on then?? 😳

Hercwasonaroll · 14/08/2020 09:02

Presumably national expectations from PA. In all honesty I have no idea!!

Piggywaspushed · 14/08/2020 09:05

Such is my fear. My class last year outperformed national expectations by a long way. Time will tell.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 14/08/2020 09:09

Absolutely piggy

The year above dds year was full of very intelligent hardworking children

They broke all the statistical information the school used and got very high grades (comparatively) one of those years you wish you didnt have to include in your stats as it made the years before and after look particularly stupid

Iamnotthe1 · 14/08/2020 09:10

@Piggywaspushed

That could be a positive thing for your current cohort. In the same way that a current class could be disadvantaged by the poor performance of a previous class, a less-able class could be uplifted by the stronger performance of a previous class.

Piggywaspushed · 14/08/2020 09:12

I am crossing everything!!

ballsdeep · 14/08/2020 09:15

@MaryBerrysBomberJacket

what are you missing? Well, the fact that you clearly don't understand how much a cohort can vary.

Over 2 A Level classes (Biology and Chemistry) I have multiple students with a grade being awarded 2 grades below their mock grade, and this mock being at least 2 of the 3 papers (a few had been absent for the last one). Now, I mark for the exam board too for GCSE and A Level, so I'm quite sure my mocks are marked well, plus we moderate in the department.

Today I saw students with C grades at mock, and given a C or a B by us as a prediction, being awards an E or a U by the exam board. Straight A* students being given a C when they have As in mocks, and had As in every assessment since the start of their A Levels. We know exactly why that has happened; last year we did not have an A and we had a U grade. This year's cohort is so much stronger. They were going for medicine, veterinary science and engineering.

If anyone thinks that this is fair, when they have been assessed to the absolute best of our ability with actual papers as mocks, backed up with monthly assessments created by me as an examiner since the start of their A Levels and an end of Y12 mock, then obviously they have a much greater understanding of assessment and progress than I do.

It's an absolute shambles and must be heartbreaking for you to see the in justice of it. I'm a primary teacher and I could cry for fellow teachers and students. The g'ment should hang their heads in shame.

I wish people would realise that teachers don't just pluck grades out of thin air and randomly give them out. Assessment is moderated and standardised both internally as a school and externally as a cluster of schools or by our LEA. We honestly do know what we are doing. It just goes to show that the g'ment don't trust teachers at all and they place their trust in a fireplace salesman who hasn't stepped foot inside a classroom for 20+ years.

noblegiraffe · 14/08/2020 09:16

@itsgettingweird

https://mobile.twitter.com/A_Weatherall/status/1294012623776817158

This explains it very well and shows where teachers had to - at times - or the computer decided at times - students were over marked.

Nothing to do with realistic predictions. It was to do with fitting this years cohort into a previous distribution.

That explanation of why some Cs were downgraded to Us (I know colleagues this happened to) is absolutely shocking. It should have been anticipated in advance that applying a grade distribution to small groups would have thrown up anomalies like this and a drop of 2-3 grades should have been reviewed manually.

Obviously the people do review for anomalies could have been the teachers who know the kids and these bloody obvious errors could have been sorted in advance instead of having the kids go through that awful experience and fixing them after the fact.

Iamnotthe1 · 14/08/2020 09:18

It does mean, though, that nationally there must be some students who were given/will be given better grades than they'd actually earnt based on the performance of previous cohorts. Perhaps Mary was on track for a 6 but the statistical distrubution for the school says that the 5th ranked student would have got a 7 so that's what she gets.

OverTheRainbow88 · 14/08/2020 09:18

All what a joke of a thread OP and I’m not going to waste another moment of my life engaging in this BS.

SmileEachDay · 14/08/2020 09:27

Iamnotthe1

See attached.

Iamnotthe1 · 14/08/2020 09:35

@SmileEachDay

Iamnotthe1

See attached.

Yes so there's a small number. But that's also compared to the (quite correct) best-day CAGs produced by staff. Some students wouldn't have achieved those anyway in the event of an exam but an exam would have decided more fairly because it would have been closer linked to individual effort. For those students, this method has actually been beneficial but that's another thing that highlights it's unfairness.

It means that less able students in previously higher performing settings have been prioritised over more able students in previously worse performing settings.

cologne4711 · 14/08/2020 09:57

What I really don't understand about this is the fact that some universities have taken leave of their senses. Why do I say that? Well, if eg you want to study medicine at Oxford you need fantastic GCSE results, plenty of work experience, to pass the entrance test, a good reference and most significantly if all, an interview. They know they are picking people who can cope with the course.

Oxford know the grade allocation system is a debacle. Yet they're rejecting people who say got AAC instead of AAA. I don't get it.

SmileEachDay · 14/08/2020 10:03

Oxford know the grade allocation system is a debacle. Yet they're rejecting people who say got AAC instead of AAA. I don't get it

Are they not oversubscribed?

Bayleaf25 · 14/08/2020 10:04

@SmileEachDay I think that must be what has happened with my DS’s AS result. He was in all likelihood low in the ranking (fairly) but his expected C/D outcome has turned into a U. Very disappointing, do you think this would be grounds for appeal or is that still being worked out?

SmileEachDay · 14/08/2020 10:08

Very disappointing, do you think this would be grounds for appeal or is that still being worked out?

Talk to his school. The appeal guidance is here. It’s all a bit of a mess tbh - I hope your son is ok.

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