To not understand why so many people view the wealth of others as public property

[FrogspawnSmoothie]

I've been noticing a lot of posts lately saying things like 'we need to sort out the wealth divide' etc and calling for the wealthy to pay for xyz 'because they can afford to', and I must say I've never quite shared this mentality.

I can see why people start to think this way when we're constantly told things like '99% of the nation's wealth is owned by 1% of the population', making it sound like they're hoarding resources. But the thing is, it's not a tin of biscuits given to the population which is now being hoarded by a few greedy chubsters. It may well have been foreign investment, for instance, which wasn't otherwise going to be invested in a UK business to then benefit the economy through taxes as it does. I go to work and earn my income, and that money is mine - I imagine most people would consider their paycheck to be their own.

I think of it like two farmers. One innovates in his processes and works out how to grow more apples with the same resources. He then reinvests his extra profit into better equipment and buys more land. Eventually, he owns 75% of the apples in the town, despite being only one of many farmers. I'm not convinced he now needs to start giving his apples to the other disgruntled farmers who envy his wealth, especially as he's now paying much more tax.

I'll admit it's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it (I'm no economist) but I'm not convinced that all the people moaning about the rich have given it a particularly nuanced consideration either. I was listening to some prat of a manbunned barista banging on about socialism and 'redistribution of wealth' in Costa today, and gotta admit I just thought to myself 'sounds like you should've worked harder at school, mate.' 🤷‍♀️

There isn’t an option when claiming benefits to state you will only take a middle class job.

Which is why my mate's brother is likely choosing the option of 'no job'.

@FrogspawnSmoothie

I also think we're too education focused at times. It seems odd to push for more deprived people to go to uni when there are skilled trade jobs earning well above the national average which are crying out for workers (and don't require you to be as well spoken and presentable as most corporate roles).

Yes, indeed, Brown/Blair tried to address that by opening "technical" secondary schools, but they botched it up and most have since closed down again due to lack of pupils.

How many people are just lazy & want to be bankrolled? so if you strip out everyone with a disability, an addiction, mental health issue how many?

‘If we had a benign tax regime, there'd be no need for the likes of pop starts, footballers, olympic athletes, actors, TV presenters, etc to "move" abroad.‘

Why do we want them here?

@userd

How many people are just lazy & want to be bankrolled? so if you strip out everyone with a disability, an addiction, mental health issue how many?

He won’t answer this.

Fun how quickly the OP went from “won’t someone think of the poor hard-working tax dodging billionaires” to ranting about those awful workshy benefits fiddlers.

It’s because he doesn’t understand what he’s talking about, but is stupid enough to pretend he does.

It’s such a bizarre thing to fixate in anyway. If someone is living in their parent’s house the only benefit they are going to get is the basic component of universal credit, which is such a tiny part of the benefit bill that it makes no real difference.

And while I’d rather an adult volunteered or contributed in some way, that’s a separate issue from the overall cost of benefits.

All I want to add is that I never understand this anger over high earners wanting to protect their own money

IMO, it's not the fact they want to protect their own money that angers people but the inflammatory reasons they often give for not wanting to share.

The wealthy are perfectly entitled to hang onto their money, but instead of just saying "nope", they often provide lots of spurious reasons in attempt to provide a moral justification for wanting to hang onto their money. This is what angers and frustrates others, IMO, because in trying to justify their actions using logic, they often make sweeping generalisations and incorrect assumptions about others' lives and experiences and often fail to recognise structural oppression in it's entirety.

Some people who peddle these views also find it very difficult to comprehend that hard work and privilege (of whatever kind) aren't mutually exclusive, and often have a hard time accepting that their wealth/comfortable lifestyle (and the fact they actually have choices) is at least in part a consequence of the circumstances of their birth.

The other phenomenon that pops up regularly on MN nowadays is the poster who is themselves a member of one or more oppressed classes and who therefore believes that if they can make it, anyone can. This again frustrates others who better appreciate that there are myriad ways that the effects of different structural systems combine to oppress or propel people in life and that a simplistic view such as this dismisses the reality of structural oppression.

@Stripesgalore

‘If we had a benign tax regime, there'd be no need for the likes of pop starts, footballers, olympic athletes, actors, TV presenters, etc to "move" abroad.‘

Why do we want them here?

I'd rather have a millionaire pop star living/paying tax in the UK at even a low rate rather than them living in a tax haven and paying nothing to the UK. At least if they were in the UK, they'd be spending money on staff, advisors, posh cars, restaurants, clothes, etc etc on top of what little tax they were paying.

This is exactly why the tax haven islands, Monacco, etc want "the rich" to live there even if they pay no tax - they're spending in the local economy.

I also think we're too education focused at times. It seems odd to push for more deprived people to go to uni when there are skilled trade jobs earning well above the national average which are crying out for workers (and don't require you to be as well spoken and presentable as most corporate roles).

Lots of people don't have a parent, mentor or teacher to explain how the world works or what career options would be most suitable for them, though. And others wouldn't have those options available to them even if they did know about them because of their personal circumstances.

OP, in terms of what you're seeking from this thread, are you looking to persuade others, to explore your own thinking, to explore big picture politico-social policies that might solve wealth-inequality or to focus on individual accountability? There are heaps of issues here and it's not completely clear as to what you're after (as I'm sure you didn't start the thread to have a pop at your friend's brother!).

Unclaimed benefits vastly outweigh benefit fraud anyway.

‘At least if they were in the UK, they'd be spending money on staff, advisors, posh cars, restaurants, clothes, etc etc on top of what little tax they were paying.‘

How much of that money ever really goes to benefit British people though? Unless the car and clothes were made here, it is surely minimal.

I would rather we were just a country of decent people who wanted to be part of a society where we all contributed to a community. What they add in buying luxuries has to be balanced against what they take in moral character, especially if they are supposed to be role models to the young.

How many people are just lazy & want to be bankrolled? so if you strip out everyone with a disability, an addiction, mental health issue how many?

But how do you strip out those people? For some, their mental issues likely stem from lack of fulfilment and it's a chicken and egg situation. Others maybe develop addictions/bad lifestyles because they have the time to smoke weed all day and no responsibilities preventing this.

Going back to my mate's brother once again, he used to work but just slipped out of it after losing his job and moving home (weeks became months).

When his mum eventually started turning off the internet when she went to work (he would still be fast asleep) he became utterly enraged at first and then started complaining that he 'couldn't just sit around all day doing nothing' once it became apparent that she wouldn't relent. We thought this might be the catalyst to get him back into a job but instead he went to his GP claiming depression and is now on SSRIs with disability benefit and a 'reason' not to work.

@Stripesgalore

‘At least if they were in the UK, they'd be spending money on staff, advisors, posh cars, restaurants, clothes, etc etc on top of what little tax they were paying.‘

How much of that money ever really goes to benefit British people though? Unless the car and clothes were made here, it is surely minimal.

I would rather we were just a country of decent people who wanted to be part of a society where we all contributed to a community. What they add in buying luxuries has to be balanced against what they take in moral character, especially if they are supposed to be role models to the young.

This is the bit I find so weird - we teach our children to share but then there’s this weird cut-off point in adulthood where people are completely happy to say ‘why the fuck should I help people?’

@Stripesgalore

‘At least if they were in the UK, they'd be spending money on staff, advisors, posh cars, restaurants, clothes, etc etc on top of what little tax they were paying.‘

How much of that money ever really goes to benefit British people though? Unless the car and clothes were made here, it is surely minimal.

I would rather we were just a country of decent people who wanted to be part of a society where we all contributed to a community. What they add in buying luxuries has to be balanced against what they take in moral character, especially if they are supposed to be role models to the young.

Yes this, a low tax rate is a distinctly bad idea, spending is no substitute for tax.

@FrogspawnSmoothie

How many people are just lazy & want to be bankrolled? so if you strip out everyone with a disability, an addiction, mental health issue how many?

But how do you strip out those people? For some, their mental issues likely stem from lack of fulfilment and it's a chicken and egg situation. Others maybe develop addictions/bad lifestyles because they have the time to smoke weed all day and no responsibilities preventing this.

Going back to my mate's brother once again, he used to work but just slipped out of it after losing his job and moving home (weeks became months).

When his mum eventually started turning off the internet when she went to work (he would still be fast asleep) he became utterly enraged at first and then started complaining that he 'couldn't just sit around all day doing nothing' once it became apparent that she wouldn't relent. We thought this might be the catalyst to get him back into a job but instead he went to his GP claiming depression and is now on SSRIs with disability benefit and a 'reason' not to work.

Told you he wouldn’t answer!

Wow, you know a lot about your mate’s brothers medical history! That’s amazing, and totally believable. The plural of anecdote isn’t data and all that, but great to see how comfortable your mate’s depressed brother was with sharing that with his brother’s mate.

OP, in terms of what you're seeking from this thread, are you looking to persuade others, to explore your own thinking, to explore big picture politico-social policies that might solve wealth-inequality or to focus on individual accountability? There are heaps of issues here and it's not completely clear as to what you're after (as I'm sure you didn't start the thread to have a pop at your friend's brother!).

I like to hear other's views on things as sometimes they change my perspective - some of the feminist discussions have enlightened me around things I never used to think about. It started as a reflection on how many people feel entitlement to the resources of the more fortunate and spiralled out from there.

People on here always want to know what your 'agenda' is but I don't have one, I just have opinions.

You can’t get disability benefit just for having depression and being on SSRIs. You wouldn’t get a GP’s fit note for years on end for it either.

@Stripesgalore

You can’t get disability benefit just for having depression and being on SSRIs. You wouldn’t get a GP’s fit note for years on end for it either.

You might if you were imaginary.

Wow, you know a lot about your mate’s brothers medical history! That’s amazing, and totally believable. The plural of anecdote isn’t data and all that, but great to see how comfortable your mate’s depressed brother was with sharing that with his brother’s mate.

I've known the family for over 20 years and my mate is always talking about her brother. Why is that so unbelievable for you?

How much of that money ever really goes to benefit British people though? Unless the car and clothes were made here, it is surely minimal.

Hang on. I thought the usual leftie answer to public sector pay rises and benefit payments was that the money is spent in the economy and therefore benefits local people etc. Why is it good for taxpayer money to be handed out because it's spent again, but not good for "the rich" to spend money??

The real answer is that anyone (rich or poor) spending money is keeping businesses open and paying tax, there's tax on the spending (duties, VAT etc), employees are paying tax and NIC, etc etc.

So the UK benefits massively even if the money is being spent on imports.

‘People on here always want to know what your 'agenda' is but I don't have one, I just have opinions.‘

The poster wasn’t asking about your agenda. It’s just that rather than defend the title of your thread, every time someone asks you about it you flip to a different political or social issue.

@FrogspawnSmoothie

Wow, you know a lot about your mate’s brothers medical history! That’s amazing, and totally believable. The plural of anecdote isn’t data and all that, but great to see how comfortable your mate’s depressed brother was with sharing that with his brother’s mate.

I've known the family for over 20 years and my mate is always talking about her brother. Why is that so unbelievable for you?

I think just because it’s bullshit? You’ve been friends with your mate for 20 years yet slag off their brother on an Internet forum to prove a badly made point about benefit scroungers and the feckless poor?

It just seems to fit your narrative very, very neatly, yet at the same time proves once again that you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.

You can’t get disability benefit just for having depression and being on SSRIs. You wouldn’t get a GP’s fit note for years on end for it either.

Perhaps he just gets standard benefits then. To be fair, I had assumed he was getting some kind of disability benefit as he claims to have been signed off work by the doctor.