To not understand why so many people view the wealth of others as public property

[FrogspawnSmoothie]

I've been noticing a lot of posts lately saying things like 'we need to sort out the wealth divide' etc and calling for the wealthy to pay for xyz 'because they can afford to', and I must say I've never quite shared this mentality.

I can see why people start to think this way when we're constantly told things like '99% of the nation's wealth is owned by 1% of the population', making it sound like they're hoarding resources. But the thing is, it's not a tin of biscuits given to the population which is now being hoarded by a few greedy chubsters. It may well have been foreign investment, for instance, which wasn't otherwise going to be invested in a UK business to then benefit the economy through taxes as it does. I go to work and earn my income, and that money is mine - I imagine most people would consider their paycheck to be their own.

I think of it like two farmers. One innovates in his processes and works out how to grow more apples with the same resources. He then reinvests his extra profit into better equipment and buys more land. Eventually, he owns 75% of the apples in the town, despite being only one of many farmers. I'm not convinced he now needs to start giving his apples to the other disgruntled farmers who envy his wealth, especially as he's now paying much more tax.

I'll admit it's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it (I'm no economist) but I'm not convinced that all the people moaning about the rich have given it a particularly nuanced consideration either. I was listening to some prat of a manbunned barista banging on about socialism and 'redistribution of wealth' in Costa today, and gotta admit I just thought to myself 'sounds like you should've worked harder at school, mate.' 🤷‍♀️

@rosiejaune
‘Fair share’ for doing what? Just for existing? But not making any effort.

Bollocks. I've been to Oxford and many of my contemporaries couldn't care for my son for 5 minutes. The people who do that very skilful job are paid peanuts.

Likewise nurses etc.

The people at the top are not as skilled as they would have you believe. Many of their jobs could be done by anyone with average intelligence. Academics etc may be different but they're not highly paid.

And we are very short of key workers. As you would know if you had tried to use the NHS in the last 30 years. It's about what is valued.

"Do you honestly believe that everyone in the UK has access to a good education?"

Absolutely yes. Every single child gets a good education in the UK. What they do with that education is up to them.

In terms of every child having access to a good education: haven't we read threads on MN from posters whose DCs have been given a grade which in Year 8 which is basically a prediction of what they should achieve in their GCSEs given that they continue to progress at the current rate? Essentially, although the GCSE course content had not yet been delivered, an estimate or pre-determining score is being assigned. It's not hard to reach the conclusion that young learners are going to be sorted and streamed at a younger age according to perceived potential. It will be a bit like the 11 plus selection, if this is a trend to be adopted by most schools and if there becomes a hardening of outlook about who is a high-type of achiever and who isn't that academic. The reforms of the GCSEs to make the maths more abstract and the English more literary in content would seem, IMO, to, in any case, favour those whose parents read with them and give them lots of 11 plus-style reasoning tests to practice and keep it hem on their toes. I think it is arguably harder than ever to obtain an equal opportunity to be educated, and hard for those with less parental support and knowledge., So telling someone they should have tried harder at school is not very just.

Take McKinsey. Company full of clever extremely highly paid people, who completely messed up district nursing because they looked at it on paper without understanding how it worked, or what differences in number of visits in a day meant.

Which doesn't impact many people until they need a district nurse (& the people who worked for McKinsey can buy their own nurse if they need one with plenty of change to spare).

@Devilishpyjamas

Bollocks. I've been to Oxford and many of my contemporaries couldn't care for my son for 5 minutes. The people who do that very skilful job are paid peanuts.

Likewise nurses etc.

The people at the top are not as skilled as they would have you believe. Many of their jobs could be done by anyone with average intelligence. Academics etc may be different but they're not highly paid.

Absolutely this! People at the top for example the chiefs in NHS for example were once a nurse themselves! Then quickly climbed the ladder..... I don’t think it was because their skills were greater then others. Others were not I have forgotten the exact role but something in the NHS and his prior role was a management at Sainsburys.

@Kazzyhoward - not just business owners, you're right. The examples you give also make me feel the injustice has to be rebalanced.

@Orchidsindoors

"Do you honestly believe that everyone in the UK has access to a good education?"

Absolutely yes. Every single child gets a good education in the UK. What they do with that education is up to them.

Not everybody has the same level of intelligence and rightly so because we all can’t be up at the top with are noses in the air can we? Who would nurse you if you got sick? Which receptionist would you phone to book a GP appointment.... snobbery at its finest.

@Diverseopinions

In terms of every child having access to a good education: haven't we read threads on MN from posters whose DCs have been given a grade which in Year 8 which is basically a prediction of what they should achieve in their GCSEs given that they continue to progress at the current rate? Essentially, although the GCSE course content had not yet been delivered, an estimate or pre-determining score is being assigned. It's not hard to reach the conclusion that young learners are going to be sorted and streamed at a younger age according to perceived potential. It will be a bit like the 11 plus selection, if this is a trend to be adopted by most schools and if there becomes a hardening of outlook about who is a high-type of achiever and who isn't that academic. The reforms of the GCSEs to make the maths more abstract and the English more literary in content would seem, IMO, to, in any case, favour those whose parents read with them and give them lots of 11 plus-style reasoning tests to practice and keep it hem on their toes. I think it is arguably harder than ever to obtain an equal opportunity to be educated, and hard for those with less parental support and knowledge., So telling someone they should have tried harder at school is not very just.

So we’re back to people making good choices for their kids then? Rather than complaining about the system 24/7. If you don’t rad with our child, whose fault is it? The govt, the neighbours, the cat perhaps? But never your own right? Never your own fault.

@Orchidsindoors

"Do you honestly believe that everyone in the UK has access to a good education?"

Absolutely yes. Every single child gets a good education in the UK. What they do with that education is up to them.

My son's school has been in special measures for 18 months. Staff changes are frequent. He didn't have a geography teacher until a few weeks ago and he takes his GCSE geography next summer.

Now there were some positives about the school but he's going to have to work a lot harder than those at the grammar (or even a school with a stable staff team), to get the same GCSEs.

I know it's not the direction this threads gone in but I do get what you mean about 'green haired, man bunned, covered in piercings socialists'. The loudest socialists I know who like to shame others for supporting capitalism are middle class and do have their choices to blame for where they are.

1 guy. Born to a middle class family in a lovely commuter village. Maybe not an all A*'s student (we'll never know) but in no way unintelligent. Decided at about 14 he wanted to be a DJ and loved very niche techno music. Because he was set on DJing didn't really try for his GCSE's, sure he did fine but definitely could've done much better if he'd tried more and he had all the resources to. Still had decent grades so could've gone on to do a levels or a practical college course but chose to do creating technical music at college. Also decided he wasn't going to 'sell out' by taking just any DJing work experience or even paid work so would only do things that were directly covering his niche music genre where he could play exactly what he liked.

His parents bought him all kinds of expensive djing equipment, Supported him going to a London music college (university equivelent), never questioned his dreams. He did work occasionally through college/uni but only in jobs he liked and that suited him (barista at a cool niche coffee place, or bar work at a place specialising in artisanal ales) refused to take waitering work in any chains he 'didn't believe in' or take any job which included pot washing or in child friendly places because he didn't like those things, and all these jobs were for extra 'fun' income, never necessary.

Spends lots of time working very undueniably hard on his music. However it's only doing exactly what he likes and believe in, refuses to look at what's popular or market trends to try and tailor his stuff to become more popular and profitable because that'd be 'selling out' and he wants to 'make it as himself' and what he loves and believe in.

Also wanted to move on straight after uni for his independence. Could've easily lived with his parents in their lovely house (rent free) and they only would've expected him to do the basics and be respectful (clean up after yourself, no late night noise, ask before having people over, let us know if you're safe/coming home or not) but he wanted total freedom so rents a flat with a friend.

He moans about how his rent is extortionate, he moans about how hard it is to work in the arts and how he can't make enough money. He moans about how it's stupid that employers in bars/cafes look at GCSEs when it's not academic work. He moans about how it's so unfair that he has to get experience and work for pennies in order to try and get 'discovered'. He moans about people judging him for his beard, man bun, tattoos and piercings. He moans about how expensive it is to live but simultaneously chooses to buy artisan and unique and handmade - would never settle for ikea or instant coffee or primary clothes (I know these have ethical challenges in themselves but he's moaning about how expensive it is to live. He's very vocally political. Says we need to take money from the rich to pay the corona debt (not increase taxes, just a one off 'rich' payment). Says anyone who's more than a millionaire couldn't possible deserve their money. Says savings are a rich persons privilege (which they are) but says this is why he doesn't have them because living costs too much (despite having had chances to save). Enjoys visits to his parents where they cook for him, enjoys them coming to visit him and taking him out.

He's the ultimate champagne socialist who's enjoyed all the privileges that his middle class life has afforded him whilst bemoaning anyone who's following that lifestyle (other friends of ours studying law and accounting ect). He had every opportunity to follow a lifestyle of financial assurance but has chosen not to. He's chosen to peruse an unsteady musical career (a privileged choice in itself). He's chosen to move out and pay high rent rather than living at home and saving. He chooses to flit between jobs when convenient to him rather than stay at one place and get experience, possibly be promoted to management and earn more.

I don't think either total capitalism or total socialism are models that work. I think there needs to be some kind of welfare state and we need to reform it. I do think the likes of amazon and Starbucks need to pay their full taxes and loopholes need to be closed. I do think the super rich have a moral obligation to be more altruistic. I do think something needs to be done about landed gentry owners who come from old money and have more than necessary. I don't know what exactly. I don't have all the answers.

But when I hear him and his like minded friends (all from the same background as us) that he's surrounded himself with shout about how the rich are evil. How people don't understand their privilege. How all money needs to be redistributed. How their hard work and many people's like them doesn't pay off. How capitalism is evil. It really makes me roll me eyes. And it also does damage to people working for real equality and socialism rather than these people who want the choice to do whatever they want without the risks that come with Pursuing passion over practicality.

Yep you're right banana - most NHS managers and commissioners are nurses.

It’s gets more and more surreal by the post. First hard workers Weren’t hard workers, now smart people are not smart. Next, it will be that every net contributor to the tax system is actually a Freemason lizard. Is their any limit to these hysterics about victimisation?

Even a modest private school is not pretty affordable if you are having to pay for it out of taxed income. Most average earners could not afford it the median wage is around £30k. So a modest private school is a big chunk of that.

This ^.
2 children at private school (incl fees, lunches, uniforms, trips etc) would probably be the entirety of 1 average wage.

@NotMyTimes he sounds like he has poor money management. If he can live at home and save up to buy a house and chooses not to well that’s his loss.

@NotMyTimes
The lazy entitled champagne socialist you describe is exactly the kind that the general public so dislike. They said so, at the last election. We have state state subsidized living for those who cannot afford to live (for good reason). Raging against Billionnaires makes them look quite silly and irrational.

@sst1234

It’s gets more and more surreal by the post. First hard workers Weren’t hard workers, now smart people are not smart. Next, it will be that every net contributor to the tax system is actually a Freemason lizard. Is their any limit to these hysterics about victimisation?

How much do you earn?

Depends what you mean by smart people.

There isn't necessarily a correlation between how much intelligence is needed to be successful at a ridiculously highly paid job.

You may need to have gone to a top university to land that job. But that's not the same thing at all.

[quote sst1234]@Devilishpyjamas
The public certainly doesn’t think so. As the country spoke only 8 months ago.[/quote]
It did. And ironically now has a government splashing the cash in a way that exceeds any Labour voter’s wildest dreams. Oh how we’re laughing.

@Bananabread8

Exactly! Poor money management and a sense of entitlement.

I'm not saying that OP's simplification is completely right. But I am saying their are plenty of chancers.

Sure he works hard, no one can deny that, but he only works hard at what he wants to. So when he complains that hard work isn't translating to money he's not wrong. But equally if he put the same hard work into something else it would make him plenty.

Sure rent is extortionate in the south where we live and paying it is hindering him from saving for a house. But he chose to move out and rent over saving. Sure he'd have to give up some independence but that's a sacrifice plenty of us make so we can save and then have our own houses and live independently later but without the dead rent money.

I'm not saying everyone can do this, of course there are some people for whom living with parents isn't feesible of possible but when people like him moan about capitalism and yell about how socialism is the answer it's all really hypocritical.

Come Brexit they can just pour it down a drain as well

@Devilishpyjamas Indeed. Look at Dido Harding. Everything she touches is crap.

Don't get me started on Dido (childishly known as Dildo in this house). Her appointments could probably be classed corrupt.

Cronyism. Wish someone had given me 248 million to source poor standard PPE which was unusable. I think I could have done that job at that price.