To think, without upsetting anybody, we are massively overpopulated on this tiny Island??? What sensible non punitive solutions are there??

[PasstheBucket89]

Its pretty relevant with all the talk about migrant boats, priti patel saying she will make the passage unviable etc she has done some awful things, it makes my blood run cold tbh i doubt she cares about the safety of them in that boats. But, what di we do, and when suggestions are made its often motivated by hate not quality of life issues. And yes, the ageing massively adds to the overpopulation aswell, but what should we do? reasonably? this tiny Island is massively overpopulated, it doesn't benefit anyone to be crammed in like sardines like this, massively effects access to housing, healthcare, education etc, What should the gov do, not adding to the hostile environment??.

I agree with PPs that we are not over populated in regards to space. But we are over populated in regards to quality of life and public services.

Say we let in as many migrants as want to come. These will mostly be low paid workers, so likey to take more out than put in to the tax system.

We then actually build the homes and public services needed for everyone. But because we have a nation of low paid workers - there isn't as much tax to pay for all that stuff. So the quality of schools, health care, police etc etc is low, lower than it already is.

Housing is cramped, what were large family homes become HMO. People build on top of existing homes(already happening in London). Affordable housing becomes cramped flats instead of family homes.

We limit the outdoor space we have, what we do have becomes cramped and overly busy.

Roads and transport are over used.

We end up in a country that yes, gives housing and low level public services to everyone, but everyone's quality of life goes down.

Things are pretty good here right now. Other than in cities most families can expect a house with a garden. We have adequate public services. We have outdoor spaces that everyone can enjoy, farm land to produce our own food and although badly managed and distributed - enough public money to keep the whole country going and in a decent standard.

Slowly we are seeing that standard of living slip. Personally I don't see how cramming a load of low income workers into our country is going to help that. If we want to retain this standard of living for our children, or hopefully improve on it, we need to be a bit more selective about who we let in. That might be selfish, but is it really our job to provide a home to every inhabitant of a shit country, just because ours is nicer?

The UK has had immigration policies to restrict numbers but never applied them as it has needed people to work in lower paid jobs - care and hospitality. Now there are caps in place, the UK has a shortage of care workers. You can’t have it both ways.

It seems largely only to be poor men and our Prime Minister who have several children by several different mothers.

Maybe that's your age bracket, but in my age group most people have kids by two partners. Most of the time the first relationship brakes down. They start a new relationship and go on to have more kids with the new partner. Unless you want a culture where people have to stay in miserable or abusive marriages you're not going to resolve that.

With finite space and resources, the U.K. cannot sustain high levels of economic immigration, where the migrants have no means to support themselves or their families they later bring over. (Not talking about foreign students or professionals).

If we try to make room by not having as many children, there will be no one to take care of an ageing population.

We cannot cull old people and the retired.

If we tax too highly, professional people and high earners will look for a higher standard of living elsewhere.

So the only option is to control immigration. We aren’t going to do that by patrolling the coastline; the only way to do it is to make the UK a less desirable destination. Take the automatic support for people arriving illegally away - you arrive by boat, you get less. Encourage people to apply via the legal route only and then take in those who need it the most.

In the year ending December 2019, 11% of people migrating to the UK were British nationals, 29% were nationals of other EU countries, and 60% were nationals of non-EU countries. This means that nearly two-thirds of migrants entering the UK in that year were subject to immigration control.

I genuinely didn't realise that UK nationals were included in the migration figures.

DBML - so migrants and refugees are someone else’s problem. You’d pass the problem onto a poorer country.

@Parker231

We have a duty to ensure a good standard of living for our own residents. The people living here now (including immigrants already here) and who pay taxes should not see their own standards of living continuously reduced.

So yes, I’d pass the problem onto someone else. Someone with more space and more resources.

Sorry that should say migrating to the UK , obviously they are included in the emigration figures

The countries supporting the majority of refugees are poor. Why doesn’t the UK do their share.

so migrants and refugees are someone else’s problem. You’d pass the problem onto a poorer country.

I don't think economic migrants should be anyone's "problem". They need to stay in their own contrey or apply to migrate via legal means.

I can't forcebly move into my neighbours house just because it's nicer than mine.

Lebanon remains the country hosting the largest number of refugees per capita, with Government estimate of 1.5 million Syrian refugees, some 20,000 refugees of other origins.

Lebanon cannot support this, particularly now.

@Parker231

Are we talking about refugees? Or economic migrants arriving illegally by boats?
They are not the same thing.

For refugees each country should have an annual quota to take, of whom we could then plan how to support in advance. They would arrive legally.

I think if you arrive illegally and without ID, your entitlement to support should be nil. This would discourage migrants from making perilous journeys with little children who have no say in their life being put at risk so that they can get to the U.K. from FRANCE.

@Keepithidden

We live in a relatively low tax country, barely 10% of the country is built on. We aren't over populated, we just don't pay enough taxes for basic infrastructure healthcare and education. Also we consume far too much, so the resources available are stretched.

Over population in my opinion is a con and is being used as another tool to distract the population from the underlying problems.

This is a disingenous argument as it 'the country' includes areas such as the Cairngorms. If you live in the SE of England you would laugh at the idea of 10% built on. It's far higher than that and will become even denser with these new planning freedoms. The CPRE have some good statistics on this subject.

The crowded beaches make it very clear that the south and south-east are over-populated and people do not have enough space to carry out activities that most people would regard as fairly normal human desires.

We should try to encourage some of the population to less densely inhabited areas to even it out.

making perilous journeys with little children who have no say in their life being put at risk so that they can get to the U.K. from FRANCE.

I still can't get my head round this. What is so great about the UK and so bad about France that you would take a toddler on a dingy across the Channel. It's either massively irresponsible or massively thick.

Plan’s mention of diaspora and colonisation mirrors a thought I’ve had a few times. I am tired of those who constantly tell us that the UK is a rich country and we must do more, after all it’s racism to have our own kids rather than take in all comers. Just who is gaining from this constant stream of ‘noble savage’ narrative? It certainly is not the private tenants, working all hours for decreasing wages to pay increasing rent to the landowners.

Another question Id like answered, after the one about how many people we can support on this island, is how you should define wealth. Electronic figures bouncing round a screen? Or ownership of assets? Many people here own only what they can stand up in, and I know many who have never been able to travel out of it. Most people who come here, travelling vast distances through countries I would never be welcomed in, are the rich of their own country.

Looked at from the bottom the UK is not rich at all. I find the increasing inability to manufacture anything here due to economics and the cheap imports we’re flooded with rather alarming.

That is all a completely different question of course from the actual overpopulation. Again I don’t know who is gaining from all the attempts to convince us that we’re not.

The way we measure economic success in the country is through growth, effectively turning the official economy into a Ponzi scheme.

Without a constantly expanding population we go into recession.

Anyone advocating limiting immigration without also advocating a different economical footing is racist

Anyone advocating limiting immigration without also advocating limiting "native' births is racist.

Raise taxes, stop the money being emigrated by the rich. Invest in sustainable local food growth. Invest in quality affordable housing.

"Anyone advocating limiting immigration without also advocating a different economical footing is racist
"

Sorry, should have said racist or economically illiterate. But there's a lot of both about

There are reasons Scotland is underpopulated. If you think you can build a few cities in the Highlands, do feel free to try. Don’t forget to factor in the food supplies.

@liaun

Eat the rich?

How rich do they have to be to be eaten?

Anyone advocating limiting immigration without also advocating a different economical footing is racist
Anyone advocating limiting immigration without also advocating limiting "native' births is racist.

I thought I’d heard it all, but this is idiotic at best.

@Alabamawhirly1

It seems largely only to be poor men and our Prime Minister who have several children by several different mothers.

Maybe that's your age bracket, but in my age group most people have kids by two partners. Most of the time the first relationship brakes down. They start a new relationship and go on to have more kids with the new partner. Unless you want a culture where people have to stay in miserable or abusive marriages you're not going to resolve that.

Education about contraception and what having kids entails should be better. Simply teach people that they should have kids with anyone they meet briefly. There is free contraception here. Free. There is no reason to not to use it.

We're all fighting over limited and restricted resources. Until society is run in a fairer way with less inequality, there is no hope of improvement.

The migrants who are coming over are regarded as rivals for the scarce resources, so this is why tensions and hostility are expressed.

I then said "or economically illiterate" @DBML

Education about contraception and what having kids entails should be better. Simply teach people that they should have kids with anyone they meet briefly. There is free contraception here. Free. There is no reason to not to use it.

I think you misunderstand my point. Most people I know don't have children from multiple partners because they got pregnant after a fling or not using contraception. They had a planned child in a long term relationship or marriage, the marriage broke down. They went on to have another long term relationship or marriage and chose to have more children.

That has nothing to do with eduction and contraception. It's a product of a society where people arnt forced to stay in the first relationship they settle into.

And as someone said upthread. Why should people that can afford and support multiple children not have them, just so we can take more migrants with multiple children into this country.

And as someone said upthread. Why should people that can afford and support multiple children not have them, just so we can take more migrants with multiple children into this country.

According to DameFanny, that makes you a racist (or economically illiterate) 🙄
Ridiculous.