in refusing DP's request to let our baby 'cry it out'?

[baldybaby]

Firstly, I'm not posting this because I'm canvassing for support. I'd really like to get objective views on this because it's causing a big problem between us and I don't know how we're going to resolve it.

Here's the deal. We have a gorgeous 10 week old baby boy who has lots of trouble with wind and colic. He doesn't sleep well at all (ie he can't fall asleep without some help from us, either feeding or motion usually). He's also a very light sleeper. These things mean that it's very easy for him to become hugely overtired by the evening, which results in screaming. My technique when this happens has been to go to bed with him where it's dark and quiet and feed him to sleep, which may take some time but eventually works. He is very slowly getting better.

DP feels that we would be better leaving him to cry. He thinks that handling him, albeit to comfort and feed him, is just adding to the stimulation and making things worse. He suggests putting him in the cot in the dark and letting him cry himself to sleep. He wouldn't advocate leaving him to cry in other situations, but thinks in this casewe should try it.

I am against this for two reasons. Firstly, I can't bear to leave him crying by himself - it instinctively feels wrong, he's too little and it doesn't, to my mind, teach him anything. Secondly, I don't think he's the sort of baby who would 'cry down', because when I've had to leave him before (eg to give myself a chance to calm down if he's stressing me out) his crying just escalates and becomes hysterical.

I have told my OH that I cannot do what he's asking me to do because to me it's fundamentally wrong. He feels upset because he thinks I'm not considering his views or giving his ideas a chance and he also points out that my techniques aren't working anyway as our baby still won't sleep by himself. My feeling when it comes to our life together is if either of us feels strongly that something is the wrong thing then neither of us should do it, but he is sure that it could help our baby.

I'd really appreciate opinions and experiences of how others have dealt with similar impasses. I also want to be as fair as possible and get some dads' opinions too, so if anyone could suggest a good dad forum that would be really good.

sshh sounds more like the noises they're exposed to in the womb hence why white noise helps. Baldy have you tried the hoover or the extractor fan? worked a treat for my DD.

ok gotcha. Thought that was something from the book people keep mentioning

I still sing a lot now (daughter is nearly one) and it's definitely now her cue to put her head on my shoulder (best moment of the day ). Moon River does it for us, every time.

Another good book is Margot Sunderland's The Science of Parenting - lots of scientific information on the long-term effects of leaving a baby to cry for extended periods. IMHO it's also more DH-friendly than Why Love Matters (a great book though), it's full colour with glossy pictures of brain scans and stuff

In any case I hope your LO settles down and feels happier soon

margojerry, you say that cuddling does not work.

You never had a poor sleeper. A lot of times, NOTHING works. It takes so much effort to get them to sleep, trying different methods (because one time one method works and another day, another works), and then when they finally go to sleep, only to wake up 15 minutes later for the cycle to start again.

I can see why CIO forms in many parents' minds. Heck it still does in dh and my mind too, for ds. And sometimes, you get so stretched that you just have to put the baby down and let him cry while you lie down in bed in the dead of night listening to him, watching the clock and then, after 2 minutes, right, let's go back to him ... repeat 5 times until 4 am.

But the point is, we never pursued CIO as a policy on such a young baby. The instinctive approach is right at this stage of life. Neurological brain development, attachment theory and all.

In simple words, if you give to your baby now, they will give back manifold when they are older. It sets the tone for the parent/child relationship. It builds emotional resilience in a child, I do believe.

On a slightly different note, my aunt's first baby was very colicky and she was advised to give up all dairy products while breastfeeding (and she said she gave up everything including bread etc with any milk at all in it) and this instantly solved the problem. Not sure if this might help...

blueshoes, I would never say cuddling doesn't work. The OP is feeling that.

The only way I think cuddling doesn't necessarily help is if you always, always have to cuddle your child to sleep as opposed to cuddling your child to calmness. I do think it is probably difficult to teach a child to self-soothe if they have always been cuddled/rocked/whatever to sleep but then, desperate times call for desperate measures and if you need to cuddle your child to sleep to get it to sleep at all, then that's what you do and then you deal with the self-soothing issues later.

I think the OP was asking how long it's reasonable to go on like this and whether there are other ways of dealing with it that are not CIO. And also how to negotiate with her DP about this since they have opposing views.

Personally, I never did CIO and I don't think it would help such a young child. But I do sometimes wish each side of this difficult question could see the other's POV more.

margo, how DO you teach a young baby to self-soothe? I really want to know - for my sanity's as well as OP's.

I don't believe the answer is CIO (particularly below 6 months). That teaches the baby that it is not worthy of their parents' attention when it cries. And a little baby cannot manage its strong feelings. Sometimes, you just end up cuddling and baby cries and cries. Like I said, sometimes NOTHING works. But as a parent, you just have to try and try.

FWIW, if baby just needs a few minutes to cry down, I am all for that. But I believe OP described her baby as getting hysterical. That is nowhere near self-soothing. Self-soothing will come with maturity and time. It is not a race. And it happens even if you don't do anything.

I totally get what you are saying. I was lucky in that my daughter had to be taught to stay awake rather than taught to go to sleep and I really think that makes life much easier (though I wouldn't necessarily wish the prematurity on anyone).

But I do think self-soothing is vital in this and no, I don't think you teach it by CIO.

If I could pinpoint anything that helped us, it was focusing on the calmness and quietness as much as on the sleep. As I said, when my daughter was looking calm and quiet, I would take her to her cot and turn the lights down and stroke her for a while then wander round muttering to myself for ages! She didn't always sleep but she did learn to associate the various things I did (the lights, the stroking) with times when she felt calm and quiet.

I'm not sure if you're really asking me about this because as you say, I had a sleeper so it's a totally different kettle of fish and I really don't want to be one of those annoying people who thinks she has a notion what she's talking about when in fact my experience was totally different to yours.

But she did have nights where she was up and screaming and people were telling me to do CIO. I didn't because I could see we were gradually making progress towards her being confident enough to sleep by herself through the night. She got there eventually at about five months.

Anyway, just saying it in case it helps anyone else.

And just to add, if I tried to do any shushing and patting or pick-up put-down which seem to be the other popular techniques on here, it absolutely enraged her! Total red rag to a bull. So different strokes for different folks.

Many different ways to skin a cat (not suggesting this as a literal method ...)

Also posted in Mens Room, just in case you missed my words of wisdon

10 weeks old is far too young to leave a baby to cry IMHO. If he's crying and it's not the colic, it's because he doesn't know where you've gone and is too young to know that you'll be back. I would be thinking about CC or Shout it Out as a last resort around 10 months, not 10 weeks.

It's hard to get out of the feeding/rocking to sleep habit, but it's still early days. I'd continue as you are for now, be consistent with your sleep cues (bath, quiet feed, lullaby, bed).

We got into a few bad habits with DS (now 11 months) and got out of them using Baby Whisperer techniques like sshh-pat and pick up put down. Her tone in those books is irritating and it's time consuming, but it did work for us.

I agree iwth you that you both need to agree rather than him wanting to try his way without your support. Also I wouldn't mess with a mothers instinct! Perhaps you could show him research which backs up your feeling that 10 weeks is too young to leave your boy to cry alone. There's a lot out there - even Ferber (CC advocate) apparently now only recommends using it after 1 year.

well, marjo...I think I used to think much like you, a complete lack of understanding of this sort of situation, as I had never been in it until I had ys that is....
with some Baby's truely nothing seems to help...and leaving a Baby to cio (which isn't a few minutes, but cio stands for crying until they stop, however long that may take)is not teh answer at any age, certainly not such a young child.
I can sympathies with teh op...my ys was the most unsettled and miserable little Baby I had ever come across...and he very nearly robbed me of any sanity I ever held on too....
sometimes, I actually had to walk away, but that was because I just needed a break from teh non-stop crying...but I never felt that is an ideal!
I msut say, the worst thing about it all was, the feeling of failure I experienced...and guilt and all thsoe otehr htings one expriences...

To OP...it does get better, btw...

we have crossposted by the way...

Gosh, how many times? I am no advocate of CIO. Didn't do it myself. Am just trying to bring the conversation back to the OP's question.

I did say we cross posted

Now I'm confused

I'm sure many of you sleep deprived ones are rolling your eyes. I'm only posting for anyone else who doesn't have quite such an intractable situation and is thinking about the self-soothing issue.

I really do get how annoying it is for people who don't understand to say what worked for them when you have tried everything. But someone told me these techniques and they worked for me so I'm setting them out again in case anyone else gets a benefit.

End of post as I'm not sure now who I am annoying

"affected adults who were left outside on their own are all around us queen"

so are you saying that all the screwed up people are like it because they were never left to cry - to go to sleep - and all the "non" screwed up ones weren't left to cry???

"FWIW, if baby just needs a few minutes to cry down, I am all for that."

well DS3 screams (sounding pretty hysterical for 2-3 minutes) and then gradually cry's down - to "outsiders" yes it probably does sound like he's screaming for attention and wants a cuddle/feed etc - but you can guarantee that if you hold him he'll scream even more hysterically and for a longer period of time. (actually thinking about it DS3 doesn't "do" grizzling - he eithers screams hysterically or babbles lol).

And to go back to the CIO - has anyone on this thread advocated it??? Of those that have said it's "ok" to leave to cry for a few minutes (when all other "problems" have been eliminated ie nappy, food etc) I can't actually see anyone saying that CIO is ok for any baby??? I certainly don't think it's ok

Queen, I seem to missing the apology for misquoting me....maybe you forgot it

I am not saying anything as preposterously deterministic as 'leave to cry' = guarenteed screwed up adult, 'respond to cry' = guarenteed well-balanced adult.

But how you are responded to as a baby matters and it can have long-lasting effects on emotional health. The affected adults (all around is, indeed) include people who are depressed, stressed, anxious, aggressive, find relationships hard, and so on.

This is not controversial - read the book, which is an accessible overview of the masses of literature on the topic. It's to do with the neurological and biochemical effect of the production of cortisol and response to it, which is calibrated in early infancy.

Human diversity being what it is, and infant experience being more complex than just being left/not being left to cry, we can't predict in any precise way which individuals are going to be affected how, or at all....but getting back to the OP, there is nothing good likely to come out of letting a 10 week old cry it out.

QoQ coughs and takes a deep breath***

Sorry Tiktok

I do suspect though that those with real problems (which stem for CIO) have not just been left to CIO when they're tired and need to sleep (as a baby that is) - but not had their others cries responded to either.

And I agree CIO with a baby this young (or indeed of any age) is going to do no good whatsoever. However I don't think that leaving for a few minutes on their own crying is the end of the world

apols accepted, QoQ.

No one here thinks 'a few minutes crying' is the end of the world, though.

You are getting cross over nothing, truly

Hello, I'm afraid I haven't had time to read the whole thread and am probably really setting myself up for a flaying here, but with my DD2 (now 4 mths); I discovered when she was 11 weeks that she genuinely did need to be left to cry it out.

One night after about two hours of shush/ pat, feeding her, letting her suckle etc she was screaming and screaming. I was in the house alone, was convinced she was just tired and put her down in her cot just so I could get out of the room for a few minutes and take a breather. She carried on crying and I went back in, picked her up and she screamed even harder - carried on trying to get her to take the breast, which she refused. Put her on my shoulder and patted her back (the seemingly endless way I used to get her to sleep previously) and she went nuts. Eventually put her back in her cot and decided to try leaving her. She screamed for another while and then started to calm down, self soothe and went to sleep. I decided to try the same next night and after about 10 minutes of fussing she went to sleep.

We haven't looked back. People (including DH's cousin, who is a midwife) had commented on how easily stimulated she was. Always "alert", head bobbing, taking everything in. I finally realised that I had been keeping her awake with my "soothing", previously. It also became apparent that her "colic/ extreme fussiness" in the evenings from about week 6 to week 11 had actually been overtiredness and that if I'd been putting her to bed earlier, it would have saved us all some harried evenings.

I'm not saying "yes, it's fine to let a baby scream" - not in all cases. If your baby needs consoling, then by all means do it. All I'm saying is that not all babies need to be soothed to sleep and if they are let get overtired, then yes, they will scream with tiredness. The trick is to lay them down to sleep in a quiet, dark room before they start to get cranky. In an 11 week old, that's about an hour to an hour and a half after they last woke. Now I know how to watch my baby for sleepy signs and get her to bed before she gets "past it". If I do this, she goes down without a fuss. If I miss the window, we're looking at 5 or 10 minutes of fussing, but she rarely now gets overtired, so no screaming anymore.

I read a great book after this had happened called, "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" by Dr Marc Weissbluth. He's a paediatrician and has done quite extensive sleep studies in children.

He recommends sleep strategies for babies and differentiates between the ones with colic (which you get to sleep any way you can until the colic goes) and non/ slightly fussy babies who can learn sleep strategies much earlier. I recommend it to anyone who is having sleep problems. I found it enormously useful.

Hope things improve for you soon.

Not read all the thread, but have you tried this technique?

www.babyslumber.com/happiestbaby.html. Apparently it can really work with colicky babies.

I breast fed all of mine to sleep. It has not made them clingy. it gave me sanity dd1 was the worst colicky baby 12 hours non stop one day and she not the worst I have heard of. None of mine slept through until well over a year. Do what you feel is right, i have friends who swear by controlled crying, but I didnt even consider it - its such a personal preference. Its hell when you are going throught it but I look back and laugh at how I weaned collicky dd1 from the hoover to her baby swing when she was really collickly.

yanbu

There's a huge difference between being left to cry and being left to cry, IYSWIM.

For example, either my 6 month DD or my 2½ year old DS has to be left to cry for a few minutes whilst I tend to the other's needs.

I think TikTok and QoQ are saying the same thing really.

Obviously avoiding stressful crying on the part of the baby is best. Nobody could disagree with that! I'm sure most parents are looking out for their baby. But, as twelveyeargap says, I think that it takes a bit of time to work out what the baby wants and that may involve a wee bit of crying. . .. .each baby is different.

It's so tricky.

I think it would be a foolhardy dh would got stood in between a mother and her crying baby, tbh. I can understand his frustration but interfering between a tiny baby and a mother who wants to respond to his needs and has a real gut feeling about the best way to do that is a really, really bad idea.

Some good advice here - try any advice that feels right/promising to you. But often with small babies it's trial and error - what works for one individual baby and family won't work for another. That's why MN is so helpful in those first months, you get loads of opinions and can pick and choose!