in refusing DP's request to let our baby 'cry it out'?

[baldybaby]

Firstly, I'm not posting this because I'm canvassing for support. I'd really like to get objective views on this because it's causing a big problem between us and I don't know how we're going to resolve it.

Here's the deal. We have a gorgeous 10 week old baby boy who has lots of trouble with wind and colic. He doesn't sleep well at all (ie he can't fall asleep without some help from us, either feeding or motion usually). He's also a very light sleeper. These things mean that it's very easy for him to become hugely overtired by the evening, which results in screaming. My technique when this happens has been to go to bed with him where it's dark and quiet and feed him to sleep, which may take some time but eventually works. He is very slowly getting better.

DP feels that we would be better leaving him to cry. He thinks that handling him, albeit to comfort and feed him, is just adding to the stimulation and making things worse. He suggests putting him in the cot in the dark and letting him cry himself to sleep. He wouldn't advocate leaving him to cry in other situations, but thinks in this casewe should try it.

I am against this for two reasons. Firstly, I can't bear to leave him crying by himself - it instinctively feels wrong, he's too little and it doesn't, to my mind, teach him anything. Secondly, I don't think he's the sort of baby who would 'cry down', because when I've had to leave him before (eg to give myself a chance to calm down if he's stressing me out) his crying just escalates and becomes hysterical.

I have told my OH that I cannot do what he's asking me to do because to me it's fundamentally wrong. He feels upset because he thinks I'm not considering his views or giving his ideas a chance and he also points out that my techniques aren't working anyway as our baby still won't sleep by himself. My feeling when it comes to our life together is if either of us feels strongly that something is the wrong thing then neither of us should do it, but he is sure that it could help our baby.

I'd really appreciate opinions and experiences of how others have dealt with similar impasses. I also want to be as fair as possible and get some dads' opinions too, so if anyone could suggest a good dad forum that would be really good.

Crying it out at this early age is damaging.

Read this book for the science of it.

Of course you can teach a baby to get to sleep by himself by ignoring his cries.

But there is a price to pay.

If your dh is interested in good evidence, and not the wine-fuelled nutters , then this book will be interesting reading for him, baldy.

You have answered for your self bb -

"it instinctively feels wrong, he's too little and it doesn't, to my mind, teach him anything."

trust your instincts on this - imo there is no such thing is letting a baby cry it out, you have to be there for them and try to figure out why they are upset no matter what. Also - I have always thought that a baby does not actually want to wake up many times a night from a peaceful sleep, something must wake them, something must be bothering them. A mad thought maybe...

tiktok, I have that book and it's largely why I'm so against the idea (as well as the misery I experience when he cries). OH isn't interested.

The book has left me terribly worried for my baby because he cries so much and I can't settle him, but that's an aside.

10 weeks is way too young. Where did he get this idea? His parents? A book?

He could read this book
www.family2000.org.uk/Why%20Love%20Matters.htm which talks about the harm excessive cryibg can do I think

but don't babies cry sometimes? Not hungry, not wet, not in pain, just crying probably because they are too tired and need to learn how to calm down. If the cuddles aren't working, what then? Not saying her dh has the right idea but there isn't always a cuddle it out type answer.

cross posts!

you know what tiktok - I have great respect for you and your opinions - but I HATE people assuming that all people who let their baby cry for a few minutes are "ignoring" their crying.

And tbh - unless you're superhuman if you have more than one child (especially if the others are quite young) there are always going to times when a baby does end up crying for a period of time when you have no choice in the matter - and where you can't always hold and comfort them there and then......so are all 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc etc child going to be permanently damaged too .

Hi Baldybaby,

Just want to say ds had colic (and reflux) and I absolutely totally agree with you and think you need to go with your instincts. He is crying because he is IN PAIN. Some babies experience a lot of gut pain in the evening. It's hard work for the parents yes, but imagine the poor baby hurting so much and not being able to understand it - imagine how much worse if the only comfort they have (mum or dad) removes themselves and leaves them alone and in pain!!!!

I fundamentally disagree with leaving him to cry it out in those circumstances, I think it is cruel.

In our experience ds magically improved with the colic when he was around 3months and I have read that this is very common as it can take that long for the baby's gut to mature enough not to hurt so much. So maybe there isn't much longer for you to have to deal with this?

All the best

I don't think she said anything about a few minutes.

"The book has left me terribly worried for my baby because he cries so much and I can't settle him"

I haven't read the book - so have no idea when the "problems" should begin to show themselves, but DS1 cried almost constantly for the 1st 4 months of his life. We then ended up doing CC with him when he was 6 months old.

Unless he was attached to my breast - or I'd managed to get him to sleep by pushing him in the pram he was crying, no I lie he was screaming - he was HORRENDOUS (could only have been madness after him when he was tiny that made me want more ). He's just turned 7 - and so far seems to be a perfectly normal 7yr old without any obvious issues.

I'm not sure I totally buy the "long term damage" thing - unless you're talking about babies who are ALWAYS left to cry, whether they're hungry, wet, cold, needing cuddle etc etc. Not that many years ago babies used to be put in prams at the bottom of the garden when it was "nap time" and left to howl....so where are the generations of affected adults???

I just want to make it clear that I agree with my DP that much of the crying is tiredness as it correlates very closely to how much or little sleep he's had through the day.

My preferred approach is to devote all my energy to getting him sleeping more in the day before trying to teach him how to fall asleep by himself at a later date when he's less knackered.

well said QoQ.

And back to the OP's question - how does she calm a crying baby who won't be calmed? He's had all his needs met but cuddling doesn't help.

Is it just a question of waiting it out?

And how does she get him to self-soothe?

Actually on the last q, I used to introduce a mini routine whenever I saw my baby looking a bit sleepy. Not necessarily bedtime but when I saw she was ready to sleep, even if only for 10 mins, I would put her in her cot, lights down, stroke her then potter round her room for a few mins till she went to sleep or even was just lying quietly.

I found doing this in the day (after milk for example) got her into the habit of calmness at certain points of the day. I'm sure it's easier to learn these habits in the day than at night when you are both knackered and fractious and he's got to the point where he's just too tired to sleep iykwim.

Anyway, this is a bit of a long haul because your baby has to learn the calmness first and that might take time. Also, as I said, my daughter was prem so that made that bit of it easier for me as she was always ready to sleep. But just a thought and it might give you something to be actively working on with dp.

Even the pro-cry-it-out baby gurus (Richard Ferber, say) would never suggest it for a 10 week old. No one halfway reputable would countenance it for a baby under 6 months -- Claire Verity probably would, but then she [with memories of SWMNBN debacle in mind, searches for a suitable phrase not involving rockets or Middle Eastern countries] has some very individual ideas.

And that's leaving aside the whole question of whether you think it's appropriate for a baby over six months...

baldy - try not to hold your breath on that one - I can have several days of DS3 not crying before he sleeps at all......but on a "normal" day between 7(ish) am, and 8pm he'll usually have no more than 2-3hrs sleep!!! (and mostinly in 20 minute "naps" [urghh])

My dd2 cried from tiredness for the first 4 months - partly due to wind too I think.

I just used to hold her upright, tightly in a sling, rock and sing until she fell asleep. It didn't stop the crying, but she fell asleep after 5 minutes and it made me feel right inside.

I then went to bed and slept with her (I was tired anyway). Doesn't seem too much to do for a little one you love for a few months - its all part of being a parent to them really.

If I let her cry she might or might not have settled, but I would have felt b**y awful. A friend of mine still feels guilty to this day that she tried crying out with her dd (now 6 yrs old) and blames her lack of affection on those early days. She completely changed tack with her second child.

You won't hurt your child by being there for him, and you'll feel a whole lot better as a mum IMO.

Agreeing on parenting can be tricky. My dh used to ocasionally mention crying alternative, I told him I couldn't even consider it if it worked because it made me feel ill. Also, I was going to do whatever got us all maximum sleep. Just say that you appreciate that he's worried about you but that even if it worked, you cannot physically do it, so you'll have to find an alternative, and that this time will pass without you having to 'do something' about it.

Queen:

"you know what tiktok - I have great respect for you and your opinions - but I HATE people assuming that all people who let their baby cry for a few minutes are "ignoring" their crying."

Eh?

Eh?

'HATE' away, then....I never mentioned a 'few minutes' and it was clear from my post I was talking about routine ignoring the cries until the baby stopped crying....the 'crying it out' technique for teaching a baby to settle himself.

For the record, leaving a baby to cry for a few minutes is not what I am talking about - sometimes leaving the baby to cry for a few minutes is inevitable, and I don't think it's especially harmful either (some babies grizzle in this way as part of 'self-settling').

Read the book.

Where are the generations of affected adults, you ask? Well....everywhere as it happens.

You'll find the detailed answer in the book, which uses science and research to explain why 'crying it out' and other ways of not responding to a baby's needs increase the risk of anxiety, depression, emotional and mental health problems in later life.

I am not commenting on your own situation. It may well have been the right one for you and your baby - and I have every sympathy with the situation you describe, truly

But if you are the 'queen' of quotes, then FGS, quote accurately

Haven't read all the posts but what about a compromise. swaddle the baby up, and hold him still against you in a darkened room with no stimulation. If it's over tiredness then he'll settle. So, he's getting the environment your OH is suggesting is what he needs for sleep and you and DS are comforting one another. IMO anything that makes you, as a mother, question if what you are doing is right. Is wrong. Don't be pressured to do something you don't want to. I was pressured to do this and let my baby cry maybe two or three times until I had the confidence in myself to say no, I'm not doing it. I still, a year later, regret doing something that was against my instinct.

good luck

baldybaby, I have had 2 non-sleepers non-cryingdown-hysterical babies. I always say there is a special place in heaven reserved for mothers (and fathers) of non-sleeping babies.

What have I learnt from my experience? Well, it does not matter. If baby is distressed, just go to him. If it makes you feel better to cuddle him, well do it.

I have the same problem in that dh will darkly suggest CIO after a bout of bad nights and I will baulk and hold him off for a few days. Then there is a spate of good nights and all is forgotton. Then the bad nights start again or a bad night and a good night, and the CIO starts to appear on the horizon. And I baulk ... the cycle goes on. And we muddle through.

Dd is now 4, she sleeps like a log through her little brothers' hysterics at night. She is now the oceanliner of sleep, not the canoe she was at ds' age.

Yes, we did limited cc at various stages in her life, but that was more like imposing limits (eg at 18 months, we refused to take her downstairs at night and ignored her tantrummy cries) and at 2.5 years (after a bout of CIO), she finally fell asleep from awake in bed.

It is different once they get older. Babies get scared. Toddlers get angry, more than scared.

Your ds will get there. And when he does, you can be so proud of him and yourselves. You will never regret the cuddles. Grab the cuddles now. Your relationship with ds matters more than broken sleep.

but, but, but,

what she's saying is, the cuddles aren't helping...

The generations of affected adults who were left outside on their own are all around us queen I'm afraid.

The book TikTok recommended is excellent and the evidence contained within is also supported by the opinion of most child psychiatrists/clinical psychologists/and attachment theorists.

10 weeks i9s far too young, leave it til 6 months if you have to but the cahnces are you may not because you've nurtured and comforted your baby when they're in pain they will have a secure base from which to explore the world both physically, socially and emotionally.

These "contented" babies who were left to cry it out aren't neccessarily contented. Contented is not the absence of crying, it's many other emotional states. "Contented" for some actually seems to me to be passive, apathetic and uncommunicative.

My dd had colic I carried her in a sling til it wnet away at 8 weeks ish. She then started to fall asleep on her own naturally at 4 months as did most of the other babes in my ante-natal group. I was shocked, I just put her in the pram, awake, put my coat on and came back and she was asleep. I nearly cried with relief!!!

Trust your instincts your baby is too young to "self-soothe" and needs comfort, if overstimulation seems to be a problem then the baby whisperer has some good tips but don't take it as gospel!

She does say that but he must stop crying at some point which effectively he would if she just left him. Holding him means neither feel like they've been /have abandoned the other.

the quiet lo-stim swaddle technique holding him against you to hear your breath and heartbeat is one that worked for us. You just have to say "shh shh" and supress the urge to sing/rock.

baby yoga and massage good too (in the morn when he's not crying as much) and number one tip is the sling

nurseyemma, I really don't notice my parents' generation being any more messed up than this one tbh. I see quite a lot of aggression and unpleasantness from youngish people these days (see the "I am fuming" thread on AIBU and passim) so I don't particularly recognise the pattern.

Having said that, I am not banging the drum for CIO which I didn't do because I never had to. Just thinking we should all be willing to acknowledge sense on the other side.

nurseyemma, why sshhhing but not singing? Interested in that. I always sung to my girl as part of a wind down. She seemed to be calmed by my monotonous drone!

I think it's up to the individual lo. It's just because baldybaby mentioned overstim which was a prob for us. If singing calms them then fab! The "shh shh" became a sleep association for my dd which still works now early eve if she's getting a bit manic and needs to chill (she's 1)