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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that Birds the bakers were right to sack their employee?

289 replies

Sootikinstew · 30/07/2020 21:17

Employee of something like 25years accepting cash from pensioners and paying for shopping on her own card.

Now I know it likely came from a good place and she was trying to be kind and helpful. But AIBU to think Birds were right to sack her. This scenario opens up her and Birds to all sorts of accusations and would surely come under fraud or money laundering rules?

OP posts:
SquashedSpring · 31/07/2020 18:04

If Birds are doing so well, I would imagine that they are in a good position to investigate ways of providing safe and inclusive methods of payment. With all the recent publicity, I hope that is something they will now consider.

heartsonacake · 31/07/2020 18:08

Well if they carry on with their "policy" they may not be selling it much in the future. Still if you're happy to have your elderly relative turned away for daring to pay in cash then good for you.

trappedsincesundaymorn Very doubtful. They’ve been operating this policy for a while now and it seemingly hasn’t adversely affected their sales else they would have reversed it.

I don’t have any relatives that only use cash. As I said further up thread, bank cards have been around decades; these elderly people weren’t elderly when they came out. They chose not to learn how to use them and now find themselves facing the consequence of that decision.

trappedsincesundaymorn · 31/07/2020 18:14

Card machines can't always be relied on, so what happens then?

heartsonacake · 31/07/2020 18:19

@trappedsincesundaymorn

Card machines can't always be relied on, so what happens then?
You want to pose that question to the CEO of cashless businesses.
letmethinkaboutitfornow · 31/07/2020 18:20

@trappedsincesundaymorn

Card machines can't always be relied on, so what happens then?
Fair enough! That’s when I use my parking coins! 😂 (Or just leave the shopping there, usually shops have signs if they don’t take cards as their system is down - they put a note on the front door)
Oldraver · 31/07/2020 18:21

Well the customer would of not handled the bread as that's not how it works in Birds. Everything is behind the counter (apart from a few items) and you are served by an assistant who handles the bread with their hands.

I love their stuff but the last time I was in there it did ick me she handled the bread and rolls with bar5e hands then went rummaging in the till

mornington222 · 31/07/2020 18:24

A one-off for a known customer who had been robbed of their card perhaps, but not on the large scale that this seemed to be happening.

lljkk · 31/07/2020 18:28

I thought I read it was about... £250? Is that 'large scale'?

majesticallyawkward · 31/07/2020 19:16

@Oliversmumsarmy

Their policy is card only; this employee broke a fundamental cash handling rule and committed gross misconduct. She has shown she cannot be trusted with the most important part of their business - money - and so they couldn’t continue to employ her

They got card only.
They did lose money and no cash was put in their till
No employee handled any money.

I am still struggling to understand what was gross misconduct.

Maybe it is an age thing.
I am similar age and it would probably what I would do without a second thought.

No employee handled any money? Other than the one that handled the money and put in their own purse you mean?
DioneTheDiabolist · 31/07/2020 19:18

Sacking employees at that age, for menial reasons such as this, just sends a very negative message, and also smacks of jumping on a reason to get rid of an elderly colleague with lots of service at minimal cost,

That's exactly what I thought when I read the article.

heartsonacake · 31/07/2020 19:23

@DioneTheDiabolist

Sacking employees at that age, for menial reasons such as this, just sends a very negative message, and also smacks of jumping on a reason to get rid of an elderly colleague with lots of service at minimal cost,

That's exactly what I thought when I read the article.

Misuse of cash handling is by no means “menial”. It’s one of the worst things you can do because if a company can’t trust you with their monetary policies—cash and card—they can’t trust you at all.
Chocoholic12 · 31/07/2020 22:46

YABU They should not have sacked her. She was trying to help.

brastrapbroken · 31/07/2020 23:01

One things for sure, you can tell the difference between the suits and the workers on this thread.

Butteredtoast55 · 31/07/2020 23:02

Birds cheese and onion bites are amazing, as are their apricot cream tarts.
Anyway, I think it should have been a warning not sacking.

Blackbear19 · 31/07/2020 23:07

@Avenueofcherryblossom

My 85 year old FIL has no problem handling bank cards. Age doesn’t necessarily mean that a person can’t cope with card transactions.
Very good for your FIL. But remember not all 85yos are the same. Some will happily do cards, chip n pin, contactless & internet banking. Some relied upon their partner to lift money out the machine and they always dealt in cash. Some have a mind set that chip n pin is a replacement for cheque so should only be used for large purchases, weekly family shop at a push, not buying a paper or loaf. Contactless - oh what happens if I accidentally use the wrong card (credit card instead of debit card) or someone else gets my card?

Accept that we aren't all the same, some of today's 40 / 50 yos will happily use Apple Pay etc others are more wary.
Who knows what technology will have evolved in the next 40 years that today's 40/50 year olds will be wary off.

Sootikinstew · 01/08/2020 08:07

Updated response from birds www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/birds-bakery-defends-card-only-4383130

OP posts:
Rayne30 · 01/08/2020 08:31

I can’t understand the reasoning in this. The only thing I could imagine was that the bakery pays a fee per card transaction , this meaning the woman was pocketing the full cash amount but the bakery was paying processing fees on the card transaction.

In reality this fee in total would be tiny, however, if it exists.

At the end of the day the woman was doing a good deed in bad times.

heartsonacake · 01/08/2020 08:42

@Rayne30

I can’t understand the reasoning in this. The only thing I could imagine was that the bakery pays a fee per card transaction , this meaning the woman was pocketing the full cash amount but the bakery was paying processing fees on the card transaction.

In reality this fee in total would be tiny, however, if it exists.

At the end of the day the woman was doing a good deed in bad times.

It’s nothing to do with a fee (she was using her own card anyway); it’s to do with the fact she committed gross misconduct by misusing their cash handling policy.

If she cannot be trusted to follow their monetary policies regardless of whether or not she agrees she cannot work for them.

mathanxiety · 01/08/2020 08:57

I don't understand why age is a get of jail free card for just refusing to do things. Fair enough not immediately jumping on every new technology but bank accounts and debit cards have been around for a long time. How does someone without either pay rent and bills?

Well this is anecdotal, but up to a few years ago, maybe ten (?), my mum used to head into the city offices of the utility companies with about 200 Euro in her handbag in cash. She didn't trust the post with a cheque, you see. So Dsis and I talked her into a debit card, Dsis took her to the bank so that the nice young bank manager could explain things to her, and then Dsis managed all the paperwork for her from her laptop, but she honestly felt so nervous about using it that she was almost to the point of bare cupboards a la Old Mother Hubbard before she ventured out to try it for the first time.

This same woman would have given her bank account details over the phone to someone with a fairly posh accent if Dsis hadn't phoned out of the blue (on the mobile Dsis got for her on Dsis' family plan, because mum finds all the mobile phone 'baggages' - i.e. 'bundles' bewildering) and interrupted the theft. Mum told Dsis to call back later because she had to get her bank account details for the lady on the landline...

At one point we thought it would be lovely for mum to have a laptop and internet access but not any more.

She is sound in mind and body, drives (long story, got her licence at age 68), lives alone and has an active social life, secretary of a club for retired people (does everything for her role by hand) - but needs monitoring because she has massive blind spots.

And yes, she now has a contactless card, but Dsis has access to her account.

But no credit card, because that is Hire Purchase and therefore a Bad Thing.

Nobody digs in their heels and 'refuses' to do things just for the heck of it or to be 'eccentric'. Some people have a lot of fears and a lack of confidence about modern technology because it came on the scene too late for them, or it had no relevance for lives spent in domestic obscurity. If they weren't able to hop aboard the digital train in the late 80s or early 90s they were often left at the station.

Some people find comfort in doing things the old, familiar way, year in, year out. Some people need that security blanket. A lot of older people have suffered a significant amount of loss in their lives - the death of siblings in childhood, relatives in wartime, economic dislocation as globalisation and de-industrialisation took place, the destruction of familiar communities which were replaced by crime ridden high rises, and the death of friends, spouses, parents, maybe even their own children, takes a huge toll - they like the predictability that comes with familiar ways of doing things, using familiar machines, the coin of the realm with Her Majesty regally making sure everything is fine and dandy.

Many were brought up in the era of make do and mend, rationing, and limited expectations in the material sense. They don't always see the merits of a phone that costs more than they put down on their house, and they have no use for the bells and whistles approach that plays such a massive part in the dazzling of today's consumer. They fear breaking expensive gadgets.

Many went to schools where creativity and the instinct to explore or even to ask questions when something didn't make sense were firmly stamped out, where they were taught Their Place above everything else, and when faced with something expensive and with an intuitive interface that assumes curiosity and invites exploration they are completely bamboozled.

In many respects some of them are more like citizens of a post Soviet world than the West.

RAOK · 01/08/2020 09:03

They have lost a loyal employee with 40 years of service and their business will be affected by the negative publicity. It could all have been handled differently with more humanity and compassion. It wasn’t like she was stealing the money by pretending to pay on her card once she’d pocketed the cash.

Blackbear19 · 01/08/2020 09:23

mathanxiety

Totally agree with you. The other thing to remember about people in their old age is some will be having memory issues. And new things are hard to fathom.

I'm mid 40s and I hate internet banking. Your meant to remember codes and passwords without writing them down. Phone with finger print certainly helps but before that every time I attempted to use it involved a faff of resetting passwords. So I'd avoid the daft thing.
I also have the ability to pay stuff using my phone & watch. Don't see the need so never set it up. I also have a slight worry about losing the phone and people having access to my cash.

What tech am I going to be left behind with in the next 40 years - this thread has me worried.

Hopoindown31 · 01/08/2020 09:28

It is a poor policy when other retailers selling simar items are able to accept cash safely. It is a policy that is likely there as the cheaper or easier route to controlling the risk.

By adopting the policy they put frontline staff in a very difficult position given that many of Bird's customers and elderly and vulnerable. Sacking the manager was just the end result of this poor decision by senior management and probably their lack of consultation with staff on the workability of the policy, which implies a poor health and safety culture.

Mummyoflittledragon · 01/08/2020 09:40

math
So true. A culture clash. My mother is not officially a baby boomer but has the boomer attitude. A few short years older is my friend, who was around 9/10 when the war ended. He is such a different character. In his 80’s rather than 70’s. I haven’t seen him for a while due to covid. But I know if I told him the story, he’d tut and say “dear, dear, dear” about these whippersnappers disrespecting and deciding how the elderly should act and react.

Sooti
And that article says nothing. A whitewash. Total crap

sweetbirdofjuice · 01/08/2020 10:43

The news article says 40 years' service.

I feel that after that length of time, if she has a clean record otherwise (no live warnings), then a final warning should have been issued. It's tricky as yes, she did breach finance policy and it happened many times to total nearly 200 quid, not just a one off. But I feel that on balance, this is disproportionate and should have been viewed as a unique case as this situation is unprecedented.

It's impossible to say but maybe she was in a difficult position turning away vulnerable people. I would say it depended on whether she had been ticked off for this before or whether the disciplinary leading to dismissal was the first action taken.

Lexilooo · 01/08/2020 11:00

I think the original policy Birds implemented was over the top and unnecessary. It may also have been illegal and discriminatory.

A shop who are known for being popular with pensioners who are the majority of their customers should have thought of a better system.

I'd boycott them but they've always run out of anything worth having before I get out of bed. I refuse to queue outside a shop before it opens.

Correct change placed directly into a container would have been one solution. Sterilising cash would be another, or having just one member of staff operate the till and having them sterilise their hands after touching cash would also have been safe.

I am seeing many ridiculous mis-informed policies though.