to civilly ask you to use your cars less

[mosquitofeast]

My last thread was deleted because I was not being "civil" enough, I don't actually think it is a subject there is much room for civility in, but I will try!

My last post was to try and answer some questions about me. Here they are

I think I have answered these.

No I am not a strict vegetarian. I don't buy milk or dairy, but eat it in other peoples houses,

no I don't fly,

foodmiles, well, I take them into consideration, but they are not the only indicator of the environmental impact of food. Tomatoes grown in a heated greenhouse 2 miles away might have more environmental impact than tomatoes grown outside in Spain, and flown in.

I have 2 adopted children, 1 is an adult no longer living at home I currently have 3 foster children, but that is likely to change this week

Yes I have a pet, it came with one of the adopted children.

No I don't smoke

TIME. TIME. TIME. that is the biggest reason why people drive short distances. And you can't change that. Today, die to circumstances I am going back and forth to my kids school 4 times. That's 8 journeys of 2 miles. If I walked it I would literally spend all day walking back and forth.

How will people in later generations view us? Probably in much the same way we think of people in the past who knew about Caribbean slavery and still ate sugar.

They weren't slavers. They made no money out of it. They were just plodding along in the world they lived in then.

The problem is that we all know what we should do: drive less, fly less, turn down the thermostat, buy less crap, recycle everything we can. But a lot of the time, the world we live in makes that difficult. I'd dare anyone to move to the village where BIL has lived most of his life and manage without a car. Our crap council doesn't recycle a whole lot of recyclable stuff. Not everyone can afford good quality clothes so buys fast fashion. It can be time-consuming (and mind-consuming) to decide to eat with the lowest number of food miles.

@Mothermorph

Lots of people have given reasons why, FOR THEIR OWN CIRCUMSTANCES they may sometimes need to do short car journeys. It doesnt mean they never walk anywhere and it doesnt mean they dont do anything about the environment. If someone else never needs to do short journeys in the car, yay, good for them.....but not everyone has the same life.

of course, that has never been in dispute. I am talking about unnecessary car journeys

We've taken ours off the road.
Dh work has gone he travelled up and down the country as a musician.
I don't drive.
Shopping we walk.
Visitors are coming to us.

@mosquitofeast So because you aren’t personally paying for deforestation you supporting it by eating dead animals is okay?

In that case its fine for anyone to travel 2miles or less in a car as long as they’re not paying for it.

@ZeldalovesLink

OP, why do you think your tastebuds are more important than the future of our children?

(Now do you see how reductive and hostile and stupid you sound?)

I don't think my taste buds are more important than the future of my children. That's why I don't generally buy meat or dairy. I am a foster carer, and do need to be flexible for the well being of my charges, but I don't eat meat or diary myself, ever, except it someone else's house, where I don't want to be an inconvenience. Although most of my friends know I am basically vegan, and cook for me accordingly

Upthread you said any journey of under 2 miles was unnecessary but that simply isn't true. Yes people do use their cars sometimes out if laziness but that really is a drop in the ocean of all the large scale industry pollution so people are not going to significantly inconvenience themselves to change what won't make an appreciable difference

what do you think I should change in my own life?

From an environmental perspective, go vegan. I can think of fewer justifications for eating meat and dairy than I can for driving short journeys. I assume you don’t believe your taste preferences are more important than the future of our planet, and going vegan is the single biggest thing you can do to reduce your carbon footprint after not having kids, so what’s the reason not to?

And if you think it’s simply too inconvenient, unsustainable, awkward etc. then perhaps you should recognise you have no right to criticise people who drive shorter journeys because they don’t have the time, energy or inclination to walk.

From a personal development perspective, stop treating systematic issues such as lack of access to reliable public transport and local services as individual moral failings, recognise that you are also not doing as much as you could and are therefore just as open to criticism as the people you have been so rude to today, and channel your energies into campaigning for actual initiatives which challenge governmental complacency on climate change and provide better access to transport and services for those who are reliant on cars.

Plenty of people work full time and raise children without a car

Indeed, and I would be very surprised if those people don’t live in city centres where there are good public transport options and a wide range of local shops and amenities. What is possible for people who have the privilege of good infrastructure is not always possible for the people living without those benefits.

Quite simple, car use is tied to work & school.

During 3 months of lockdown, I used less than a tank of fuel. Had time to teach my son to cycle on the road. No commuting. No school run.

Come September, school run will be back, commuting will be at least one day a week, I'll be time-poor again.

of course, that has never been in dispute. I am talking about unnecessary car journeys

The problem is that you seem to be deciding on everyone else's behalf whether their journeys are necessary or not!
I admit I do lots of short journeys that I could walk and we are re-evaluating as a family which ones are possible to exchange. If I'm picking up and collecting 2 children from different locations (both of which are walkable) but time constraints mean it's not possible to walk to both then i do use the car. Getting my teen onboard to do one (0.8m) journey on her own is an issue and even then due to the poor street lighting i will most likely collect her in winter no matter how civilly a random person asks.

Although most of my friends know I am basically vegan

Basically vegan = not vegan.

You say you don’t want to be an inconvenience, but haven’t you already made clear several times that you don’t think convenience is a good enough reason to do all you can to reduce your environmental impact? I don’t think you can have one rule for you and a different rule for everyone else.

[quote notheragain4]@mosquitofeast lots of the schools I am looking at are 2 miles away, I don't have time as a working parent to walk my kids 40 mins to school, and 40 mins back and then again in the evening. I work full time. 2 miles is an unreasonable amount of time to expect people to walk from a time perspective. Cycling is not readily available to everyone for various reasons, though that is something I would consider when they are old enough to go independently if I am happy with the route.[/quote]
This is a cultural difference. Where and when did society pick up the idea that 2 miles takes an unreasonable time to walk? This is an new thing. Previous generations would not have said that, nor my generation. I don't think this attitude is sustainable, or that it will be sustained, as car ownership dwindles in the near future, and lives are based on other methods of transport are .

But people who have cars quite often say such journeys are impossible, forgetting that that people without cars are doing them every day

You are talking utter nonsense OP. You have one adopted child at home and three foster children? And you don’t drive?! So you drag four kids around for every trip under two miles?

As if!

@SantaClaritaDiet

You can ask

I can ignore you and mind my own business. I like to drive and sometimes go for a drive for the fun of it. DH goes on his bike for the fun of the drive, not to go anywhere specific.

You do your bit as you like, and I keep doing what I enjoy 🤷

Oh, I do this too

I love going for a drive in the countryside, just for the enjoyment of driving in peace and quiet.

I even enjoy stopping while the cows cross the road to be milked, the smell - not so much!

@doityourselfnow

not for two miles though. If a journey is less than two miles, why does a healthy person need a car or public transport? Unless, as I said on the previous thread, it is for Genuine safety fears, or genuinely heavily loaded, and not with shopping!

Because they've got busy lives and not enough time to walk.

Because it doesn't fit in with their work schedule and nursery drop offs.

Because they don't like walking.

Because they like the comfort and use of their car .

Because they live in a hilly area.

Because you don't get to question why, it's an individual decision. Not thankfully yours!

none of these are reasons to inflict the environmental damage that is done by driving. Its isn't my decision now today , no, but car ownership and driving is going to be very much more limited in the future, so at that point it won't be individual decisions. Unfortunately, that point could be 10 years away, and there is a lot of irreversible damage that could be done before that.

Also vegan? So you’re concerned about the environment so don’t eat meat but more than happy to eat an avocado that’s been flown half way around the world?

Oh do bore off

No. I can't use it less, I don't have the time.

@Todaythiscouldbe

I'm working full time. A 2 mile trip (each way plus shopping time) would take around 90 minutes on a good day, but more like 2 hours. If I can't do a big shop as I'm carrying it I would have to do this 3 or more times a week. When would you like me to make the time to do this?

again, someone with a car saying they can't do without, and forgetting that so many people, also full time workers, don't have a car, and do manage with walking

I have equally strong feeling about randomers being preachy on internet forums.

'Basically vegan'

With those two words you've just outed yourself completely.
You're THAT kind of person.

Also vegan? So you’re concerned about the environment so don’t eat meat but more than happy to eat an avocado that’s been flown half way around the world?

Oh do bore off

OP isn’t vegan - for some reason, she isn’t bothered about that part of her carbon footprint. But I am also compelled to point out that a kg of lamb creates 46 times more carbon emissions than a kg of avocados imported from South America, so even if vegans subsisted entirely on I
imported avocados (we don’t) and even if meat eaters subsisted entirely on local, grass fed lamb (they don’t) veganism is still the environmentally superior option.

again, someone with a car saying they can't do without, and forgetting that so many people, also full time workers, don't have a car, and do manage with walking

So many people?? really? People with children? Who work out of the home?
I very much doubt that but would love to see some evidence to prove me wrong.

@EatDessertFirst

Ok. I'll bite again. I'll stop using my car when:

YOU get rid of your pet and grow all your own food, stop using electricity and live off the grid and stop consuming dairy and meat of any kind.

Only then will your arguements have any legs to stand on. Otherwise, you are just spouting pointless, self-righteous bullshit.

Get over yourself.

Noone can do that, but lots of people can do far more than they are doing, and car journeys are the one that has been in the news today.

It makes no sense to say you don't care about the destruction you are causing to the environment because everybody is doing some. There are people who try hard to reduce it, and there are people who don't. The real problem is the people that don't.

@mosquitofeast
OP why don't you rephrase your question?

Why don't you civilly ask everyone to move to London/Bristol/Manchester/*insert place with good public transport.

The fact is if you live rurally or in a town, you drive. If you live in a city, you don't. DH grew up in london, his mother doesn't drive (she has 4 kids). None of his siblings drive (he has 1 in manchester, 1 in tel aviv).
I never learned because i come from singapore and in singapore, you need to pay the equivalent of £30k for a license to own a car (never mind about the actual car) so only 1 in 4 people own cars.

the people you should be targeting are the people in London who have 2-4 cars and I am not sure why? Other than the environmental concerns, there aren't enough parking spaces!!

I'm basically a non driver.
I only drive to the supermarket and to my parents house.

Does that give me the right to 'civilly' ask you to stop destroying the planet by not being an 'actual vegan'?