WWYD U.K. or Oz?

[ATaleOfTwoCovids]

Short: Looking for advice on whether to stay in Australia or return to the U.K.

YABU: Stay in Oz
YANBU: Return to UK

Long: We’re currently in Australia, we’ve been here a year and a half and we’re supposed to return to the U.K. at the end of the year. The local office form my company where I have been working this past year and a half have offered me a permanent position (and a raise!) if I stay on.

DH born and raised here. He and DC are all dual citizens U.K. and Oz. I’m British but visas are all fine and I’ll eventually be able to get citizenship so that’s not a major issue.

For context I am higher earner and would be getting paid more here than in U.K. I’m not worried about my position if we were to split, my job is permanent and I’m qualified in an area with more demand than supply here (for the time being anyway). My company is fairly Covid proof due to the industry. DH also working but he works freelance in a creative industry so can work from anywhere.

Pros of staying:
-Cost of living here significantly cheaper as well as more pay so we’d have a much better quality of life here in the short term at least.
-Our city is covid free so life is pretty much normal.
-DHs family are here and offer help with childcare (in the U.K. we’d need to hire a nanny or have DH cut back working significantly but the latter would put us under financial strain).
-Basically no winter here. Summer is unpleasant but with air con not really any worse than U.K.

Cons:
-Might have short term negative repercussions on our financial planning (but that might be fucked because of Covid anyway)
-My family are all in U.K.

• The situation with China is escalating quickly.
• It’s quite provincial in comparison to the U.K. in some ways (I don’t want to completely disparage the culture here, in many ways it’s much freer here and people have a better work ethic despite things overall being very chilled). We don’t mind but I worry it may be detrimental to the children long term.

To add to this if we were to return to the U.K. and the proverbial shit were to hit the fan we might struggle to get back to Australia. It’s not clear how long the borders will stay closed (I may be able to get an exemption but flights are thin on the ground regardless) and it’s not certain I’d be able to get my job back if I turned it down now. We need to decide in the next couple of weeks because of the job offer. Would you stick with the plan or just stay put where we are?

YABU: Stay in Oz
YANBU: Return to UK

it’s basically spiralling out of control into a Cold War over here. It’s not looking good and is making me jumpy I guess but I think it’s just paranoia that’s cons from being on high alert because of all this covid stuff

Tensions run high with China periodically here. When China wants some more leverage with Aus, they escalate quite quickly.

I'm worried myself this time because with C19 China feels backed into a corner and probably expected Aus backing. We will wear their brunt for a while.

But, I would much prefer to get here than the UK at the moment and you have some really strong pros personally, I think, for staying.

It doesn't have to be forever, but I'd stay put in Aus for now.

@underneaththeash the border is closed. There are very few flights. We’d need special travel exemptions to leave and then come back in. If we were able to get back we’d have to do quarantine, most likely twice as internal borders are closed as well. I also need to get back to my employer sooner rather than later and I don’t think they’d appreciate my taking off to the UK and then being in quarantine for a month.

Aus seems like a no brainer to me. We’re not exactly best pals with China either at the moment with the Huawei stuff.

I'd stay in Oz. It's a beautiful place to be and I can't wait to go back myself!

@RedCatBlueCat still a few years away

@ReefTeeth that’s probably true. I just work around the defence industry and what I’ve seen at work just put me on edge slightly but I guess it’s more noticeable because a lot of other areas have gone quiet due to covid.

I can't really see why you'd bother with all the hassle of returning to the UK if you are happy to stay in Oz. If you were unhappy, missed your family and friends, missed Europe/European culture then I'd totally understand (and, in your shoes, those would be my concerns), but you seem fine with staying so why the agonising? Just stay for now. You can always return to the UK in the future. If it ain't broke, etc.

@zafferana I’m just a bit concerned because we’d planned a few financial decisions around returning now and I’m concerned that if we don’t go back now but decide to go back for senior school for instance we might no longer be able to afford it. I’m not dead set on going back to the U.K. but I guess it’s just that I don’t like not having the option potentially. Coming here is always doable (covid aside) it’s cheap and my skills are in demand. It wouldn’t be as easy to find a well paid job in the U.K. (although I don’t think it would necessarily be that difficult either) and affording schools and housing over there in particular worry me in the event we decide to return. There’s also an emotional investment. I have missed it and was looking forward to going back and seeing friends and family at the end of the year so I guess it’s just a bit difficult to accept that that won’t be happening when I anticipated but rationally I know that once borders are open again we’ll always be able to visit one another. I think I’m just being a bit silly though now that I read it all back, it’s good to get it all down at least so I get the chance to get my head straight.

One thing that might make me lean towards the UK is the children, I have a few Aussie friends who are openly talking about trying to get their children European passports due to the likely issues with climate change over their lifetime. I also know of a few children with joint passports who chose to do uni in the UK then didn't really head back. So part of me would want to bed down in the country they're more likely to end up in.

But, if that were to happen you can always move at that point. We have family settled in Australia and they are much more outdoorsy than us, I think my gut would lean UK for the usual reasons of culture and feeling more connected to the rest of the world but I also think the next decade in the UK is going to be rough: not so much the political and economic fallout of brexit as the social division that started because of it. Australia feels more socially coherent to me at this point in time, but that's not a v informed view.

Australia for me too! Sounds more positives to stay where you are, OP. And as a PP said, it doesn't have to be forever if you change your mind in a few years time.

It wouldn’t be as easy to find a well paid job in the U.K. (although I don’t think it would necessarily be that difficult either).

This is ignoring the Covid situation, which has caused mass lay-offs and many companies going to the wall. The UK has been MUCH harder hit by the Covid than Australia has. Do you have business contacts here that back up your statement above? If not and you're just guessing I would look into it before you assume it will be relatively easy for you to walk back into a job over here.

I get the emotional investment (I've lived OS myself), but that's not a reason to uproot what sounds like a happy and settled life where you are. Covid has meant that many people aren't seeing their family and friends at the moment and with winter almost certainly meaning a resurgence of the virus your happy homecoming is unlikely to be as you imagine. I've just seen my parents for the first time in four months and the closest I could get to my dad (he and stepmum are shielding), was 2m. I'd try and take the emotional stuff out of the equation, as it will cloud your judgement and this is a head decision, not a heart one.

Big international moves are expensive and very stressful and unless you're planning to go back to a home you own in an area you already know it can take months to settle. From what you've said, there are far more pros in the Oz column than the UK one.

@worriedmama1980 I’m not sure I’d call this place socially coherent, I think socially disinterested is probably a better description of my experience at least. It’s nice though that people aren’t at each other’s throats. DC will likely leave at some point (whether it’s to a larger city in Oz or to somewhere abroad) but I guess there’s always a likelihood of them moving further afield wherever we are. Thankfully they’re British citizens so will have working rights and what not in Britain should they choose to return. I feel you in the cultural reasons though. At first it was fun but now it feels like we’ve done everything. We’re starting to get outdoorsy though, I never understood why people do that before but now I realise that it’s from sheer boredom.

@zafferana I’m currently still employed by the London office so I’d just be continuing my current job back in the U.K. as opposed to taking the new job in Australia. I’m also at a fairly good place in my career and would always be able to find a job in the U.K. but finding a well paid one might not be straight forward, especially if this coronavirus disruption causes long term problems which it looks like it will.

How does your DH feel - is he equally happy with either option?

As an expat who has finally made the decision to go home and has been horribly homesick for a year or two (lived away for 8) even I would say stay - you don’t seem to be desperate to move back for emotional or practical reasons, yes it’s sad not going back for your annual holiday (believe me, I get it) but the U.K. isn’t going anywhere and from your list of pros and cons Aus currently seems to have the upper hand. I’d guess as well that if you stayed long enough to get citizenship that actually leaves you with a lot more options further down the line? Eg total hypothetical, you and DH split up, you are back in the U.K., D.C. are adult and want to live in Aus but now you’re older and it’s not as easy to get sponsored or whatever - if you’re a citizen you can just go where the whim takes you.

Honestly it doesn’t sound like there’s much on your list drawing you back to the U.K. other than some financial planning changes but frankly financial planning can go out of the window at any point for any reason especially seeing how things like Brexit and Covid have impacted things

UK. All the way.

But .... you are not me

I don't think you should worry about the cost of housing in the UK if you leave it a few more years. Post-Brexit, particularly if there's no deal, I would anticipate quite a crash, and Covid is only going to exacerbate that because of people losing their jobs. It will be a buyers' market imo. Schools may be a different matter if you're planning to look at fee-paying, as many of them are going bust in the current economic conditions. As regards China, I think we're squaring up for a cold war of our own, what with Huawei and HK.

In general terms, Britain feels like a bit of a shithole at present and I can't really think why you'd want to come back if you have any other palatable options at all, let alone a job offer with a pay rise, a good qol, a shot at citizenship and a happy family.

OP could you come back alone as a National.
I also think the age of your children is really important, as there are times in their education where you can’t come back.