AIBU to think that the NHS IS now on the table for any trade deals?

[Judgeypants2020]

During the election, Boris Johnson told us that the NHS would not be on the table in any future trade deals post-Brexit. This week an amendment that would stop the NHS from any outside control was voted down.
So instead of taking 'back control' we are giving away control? Or have I misunderstood?
AIBU - No, the NHS is safe, Trump won't be able to get his filthy, orange hands on it
YANBU - Yes, the NHS is now at risk of going down the path of a US-type system.

It always was. This has been talked about in conservative circles for years. The conservative ideology has always been pro-small state - reduce public services and cost to tax payer and encourage personal responsibility and business/entrepreneurship. Anyone who thought this wouldn’t happen hasn’t been listening to them.

Not sure the thing is if the tories said they invented the wheel labour would say it's a bad idea .
So doubt how factual the stuff labour say about it is

Of course the Tories voted down a Labour amendment, hardly a shocker. I am curious why they haven't sold it off before if that is the Conservative ethos, they have had plenty of chances.

So @rwaller you think making the NHS available for sale to foreign companies, and this can include your own health data, is a good thing? Really? I suspect even many conservatives are balking at this.

But voting against this amendment makes that no more likely than it was last week @SarahBellam.

Having just read the thread about waiting around with drunks in A/E and loud visitors / tv/ phone calls in induction ward, anything done to the NHS can only improve it imv.
Why worry about someone getting their hands on your health data when google etc have all the data on your day to day life anyway.
There are many health systems doing better than the NHS, the US's not being one of them, why would we copy the US?

I don't think you really understand what 'on the table' means.

We are a capitalist society and thr NHS both buys and sells services across the public and private sector. Being on the table means we can buy services if the quality/cost is right and also sell our services to other countries.

The NHS already sells quite a lot of its services and some of them generate an operating surplus which then increases funding in the UK.

So it works both ways and isn't necessarily the start of a move to an alternate model.

@Staplemaple

But voting against this amendment makes that no more likely than it was last week *@SarahBellam*.

Parliament voted this week NOT to have any say in upcoming trade deals that the UK is seeking to form with other countries. As I understand it the amendment in question is part of that. Tory MPs voted to make themselves irrelevant and to take back control and give it straight to Cummings/whichever right-wing oligarch wants to take it. But it's certainly not the British parliament that's now in control.

Along with placing the NHS firmly on the table, they have also voted not to guarantee environmental and food standards. We are on a very dangerous and depressing path now and anyone who thinks otherwise and says it's just 'Labour' moaning is utterly deluded and poorly informed.

But yes, it's been an inevitability since the 2019 election and this type of vote was bound to happen. If your vote was not a vote against the Tories in that election then this is on you.

@sarhbellamSo
@rwaller you think making the NHS available for sale to foreign companies, and this can include your own health data, is a good thing? Really? I suspect even many conservatives are balking at this.

My point is there is so much scare mongering about it we don't know what to believe .
I wouldn't want it sold off but can see why any government would it's a poison chalice .
The reason the NHS is fucked is because as a nation it's totally abused you could throw money at it all day long
WE need reduce the burden on it by taking personal responsibility for ourselves with lifestyle choices drink,drugs,weight and smoking .
We are one of the fattest unhealthiest nations we have done that to ourselves .

YANBU OP
That has always been the intention. Some people are going to make a lot of money.

Of course it is.

Tories gonna Tory.

This ones on you, Tory voters.

rwalker It's a poison chalice in terms of re-election, but these fuckers have another 4 years and there is money involved. Those at the helm aren't dedicated parliamentarians.

And as your second paragraph implies, it may not be a poisoned chalice for re-election anyway. You seem so sure it's all the individual's fault when they make poor lifestyle choices. Nothing whatsoever to do with the cost of healthy food, education, mental health issues caused or exacerbated by social deprivation etc etc. Those who sold us 'Take back control' will no doubt be able to spin the lie that immigrants/benefits scroungers etc are to blame for them having no choice but the sell off the NHS, and people like you will lap it up. They had already started creating the narrative during the last parliament with all the stuff to 'prove' it's 'not working' - GPs paid too much/not open enough/ doctors not working Saturdays in A&Es etc.

The reason the NHS is fucked is because as a nation it's totally abused you could throw money at it all day long

The reason the NHS is fucked is because it is underfunded and was smashed into tiny disjointed pieces by Lansley.

The healthcare we want/need has a cost. Introducing more privatisation will increase the costs, rather than decrease them because there are hungry shareholders and insurance companies to feed.

Of course it is. China already owns the largest proportion of independent hospitals in the country and has taken huge profits from the NHS contracts for elective surgery.

It will introduce two tier healthcare. The Cinderella services will be decimated.
Elective surgery will usually be OK but there is far, far less back up in case of emergencies. Outcomes are worse and there is far less oversight of treatment. The Chinese owned strap line has always been ‘The consultants choice’ and maverick/rogue surgeons are not held to account in the same way they are in the NHS trusts.
Many people will be excluded by the contracts.

The introduction of private firms taking over certain NHS tasks was done by Labour

This is one of the policies which is only nasty when the Tories do it.
Or in this case, haven't yet done anything (other then reject a precondition)

There are many health systems doing better than the NHS, the US's not being one of them, why would we copy the US?

Because this can happen by stealth, without any need for legislation changes, to enable Johnson and his cronies to line their own pockets.

The introduction of private firms taking over certain NHS tasks was done by Labour

This is one of the policies which is only nasty when the Tories do it

Sure Labour did and there is nothing wrong with introducing privatised services when it can be proven to improve patient care/save money.... but its the extent of privatisation that the Cons are driving forward.
Look at nurse shortages? easily solved yet we have 10s of 1000s of vacancies.. filled by the private sector.
Piece by piece the Cons will turn the NHS into a purely private organisation, with only AE left in the public arena...

The UK, having pissed off Europe & angered China is going have only one "friend" left.. the USA and should Trump be re-elected his America First policies will prove very expensive for the UK, we have no influence on the US and special relationship is one way only... just remember Harry Dunn.

Read up on Britannia Unchained written by Raab, Patel and many other leading tories just a few years ago.

How are nurse shortages easily solved? @jasjas1973

Pay, more & free training places, better working conditions... and why should nurses have pay £120 per year to register as a nurse???

We don't have shortages of people who want to be politicians or work in the 'city.

Its not rocket science because most of these 1000s of vacancies are filled by agency nurses.. at huge cost to the NHS, there are already enough nurses but they leave.

The labour amendment was a waste of time. It was obviously designed to deliberately fail, so that "NHS on the table for Trump" headlines would appear. The only halfway useful clause was the one to protect the NHS from investor-state dispute settlements. Labour still don't seem to acknowledge that most GP's are not NHS employees but are private contractors to the publicly funded NHS. The same applies to dentists, pharmacists, opticians etc. The labour amendment wanted to ensure continued "comprehensive and publicly funded health service free at the point of delivery". This doesn't exist at the moment. Dentists, opticians and (in England) pharmacists all charge the user for their services.