Nursery have used funded hours to repay furlough money

[KittyKat1983]

Hi, just after a bit of advice if anyone knows where I stand with this. My DD was due back at nursery next week as I am going back to work. She gets 30 hours funded by the government which I have been renewing all through lockdown and she hasn’t attended since March. The nursery are now saying we will have to pay for her place as they have used the funded hours to repay the furlough money they claimed off the government. Does anyone know if they can actually do this? It’s left me stuck because I can’t afford to pay the full rate so won’t be able to return to work. Thanks in advance.

Thank you @Jumblebumblemess that’s good advice - if I have it in writing then I’ll have something to show my work at least when I have to explain why I can’t go in!

[quote KittyKat1983]@Jumblebumblemess yes they are stretched hours, she usually goes all year round rather than term-time only[/quote]
As they are stretched, then they are in the wrong and should still be providing the same service, with you receiving the same funded hours and paying any extra as normal.

Speak to your local council (or gov.uk) about whether anything can be done. As the funded hours are term time only and it’s up to the individual nursery to agree to annualise then you might find that you won’t be able to get any funding now until September but it’s definitely still worth raising.

Yes, speak to your local authority who should be able to help you get those stretched funded hours.

Thank you all for taking the time to reply, I just need to try and calm down a bit now so I don’t cry on the phone

Ahh this is really tricky, and I can see how it's ended up like this. Nurseries were told that they could only furlough staff to the proportion of their 'private' money - so unfunded places, and that they'd still get the funding so had to use that money to make up the difference. The problem is that they weren't allowed to count your DD as only 2/3rds of a funded place even though you stretch your hours over the year - in theory the funding is term-time only, so it's all gone now. So no, you can't take it elsewhere, either - your funding has been used. It's a really crap situation for you but I don't think the nursery have done anything wrong. Technically you never get funding in the summer, they just split your bill evenly over the year so it feels like you do. You're in the same situation now as if you wanted her to start somewhere new in July in a normal year - there's no more funding until September.

So basically the government were paying twice for those hours? Once for furlough at 80% and once through the funded hours.

I can see why they change the rules but what an incomepe mess. I wonder what other organisations have been addressing like this, there must be quite a few that receive government funding which also furloughed staff.

However it's unreasonable fir it to cime down to you OP

Sounds like they've illegally claimed furlough and had to repay it. Not your problem. I'd probably report them.

I’d assume this was the issue that arose a bit after furlough started. Nurseries weren’t allowed to claim furlough for staff whose wages were paid for out of the 30hrs funding, they had to use that instead (and in some cases repay). That was regardless of whether the funded hours were being used or not (effectively holding the place with funded hours rather than the retainers some nurseries took from fees). I doubt you’ll have any come back on this when it comes down to it, unless they have given you something in writing to the contrary previously.

@Nottherealslimshady

Sounds like they've illegally claimed furlough and had to repay it. Not your problem. I'd probably report them.

You do realise that the government didn't announce nurseries (and others who get government funding) until after they'd allowed many of them to claim furlough?

Nothing illegal in it. Just government incompetence.

I'd say hardbackwriter has it. Instead of using 20 hours funding during lockdown they used 30 hours so now the funding is gone. And they had to do that to pay staff because they didn't get furlough.

I think it’s not so much the fact it’s come to this and I can see the nursery’s predicament, it’s just that it’s been left so late to tell me and it’s been arranged for weeks that she’d go back next week - I have lots of emails between myself and the nursery to say this was all fine. Also DD has been so excited to go back and see everyone.

@TheTrollFairy

Just to add, I do think nurseries were being screwed a bit with the furlough and some being forced to stay open for vulnerable kids and key worker kids whilst not receiving enough to operate as you have to have a certain amount of staff in per certain amount of kids

That sounds awful, but it doesn’t make it okay for them to basically seize the children’s individual funding.

I think the Treasury have made a few fundamental cock-ups over emergency COVID policy and the nurseries need to banding together tomorrow oppose the furlough claw back. Not hijacking money from parents.

I wonder what other organisations have been addressing like this, there must be quite a few that receive government funding which also furloughed staff.

They were all told they couldn't furlough staff paid for by public funding too. It's very easy somewhere like the civil service where everyone is a public servant, but it's really complicated somewhere like a nursery or a university where there are both public and private income streams and most individual staff aren't specifically paid out of either. It caused a lot of problems for universities, too, as they weren't sure whether they could access the furlough scheme and in practice how many staff they furloughed depended on individual university's appetite for risk.

As you say, it's the only fair way really because otherwise the government pays twice. The problem is the government gave the funding to the nursery to cover the last term, so they can't/won't now give it again so OP can benefit from it.

@KittyKat1983

I think it’s not so much the fact it’s come to this and I can see the nursery’s predicament, it’s just that it’s been left so late to tell me and it’s been arranged for weeks that she’d go back next week - I have lots of emails between myself and the nursery to say this was all fine. Also DD has been so excited to go back and see everyone.

They may not have known it was an issue until now. The whole situation was such a mess and so disorganised that nurseries have been trying to sort it.

The place my DS works is partly government funded and HMRC/government still haven't decided how much furlough will have to be paid back. It could be some of it, could be all of it. It's so disorganised.

The funding for nurseries is very complex. Here's the latest guidance.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-financial-support-for-education-early-years-and-childrens-social-care/coronavirus-covid-19-financial-support-for-education-early-years-and-childrens-social-care

They could furlough staff but not necessarily claim back all the costs, dependent on how much of their income comes from private fees as opposed to free hours.

OP, if you contact your local early years advisory team at the LA, they may well be able to clarify the situation.

Surely they can’t use funding for YOUR child, then ask you to pay because they’ve allocated that funding in a different way?

I appreciate they may have been able to use the funding available proportionately to the time your DD wasn’t there, but surely they can’t group it all together because it suits them?!

I would ask them to point you to the policy that allows that.

@HogDogKetchup

Surely they can’t use funding for YOUR child, then ask you to pay because they’ve allocated that funding in a different way?

I appreciate they may have been able to use the funding available proportionately to the time your DD wasn’t there, but surely they can’t group it all together because it suits them?!

They used it during term-time, which is exactly when it's supposed to be used. It's splitting it over the year that is the act of goodwill by the nursery, and it's an accounting thing to split the money over 12 months, it doesn't actually move when the funding applies.

Agree with @hardbackwriter but frankly if my childcare setting had done this to me I wouldn't have had the money to pay for the hours so I'd be completely screwed and unable to go to work. They've essentially changed your agreement without your consent. It's clearly not illegal but wrong and I'd be extremely angry. There are so many parents who wouldn't be able to just pay the full cost out of pocket for childcare with 1 weeks notice.

Makes sense hardback and I didn’t realise re the termtime thing. But if that was the fee arrangement nursery has agreed with OP it doesn’t ring fair that they can’t just change that to suit their circumstances.

I think the nursery is in breach of the contract it made with you. It agreed to claim the funded hours and to stretch them. The fact that they have used the funds is not really your problem.

It might not be “illegal” but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a breach of contract.

The nursery are not changing the agreement to suit their circumstance. The government know this happens. They know the problems this will cause.

Had they not fucked up bringing this in the nursery would have been able to tell parents last month or the month before that all the funded hours have been used.

To say the nursery are changing things to suit themselves is unfair and pointing the blame in the wrong place.

Nurseries were told to use the funded hours payments to pay their staff first before claiming furlough payments.

Hi,

My sister works in a nursery. She wasn't allowed to be furloughed by government as her nursery was recieving the allocated payments from government for set children. It meant she went without pay as this is very little as her nursery relies on private children. When my sister cot acted HMRC to ask whether she could be furloughed they said no because she is a key worker and her nursery is receiving the funding. I think your nursery has incorrectly furloughed their employees hence why they are having to pay it back and use government money. I would say they aren't allowed to use allocated money as that's to fund your child's place not to pay their debts.

Hope this helps