No kid ever changed their ways from being labelled negatively?

[Echobelly]

Kind of a 'settle an argument' thing here - do people think anyone child has been 'shamed' into changing their ways by being told they are lazy, a liar, selfish or some other negative label?

NB, I'm not talking about specifically doing something that subsequently they were ashamed of, either when they realised it was bad themselves or someone spelt out the consequences of it. I can see that shame can work when you know there is something to be ashamed of.

My view is that all negative, shaming labels do, unless there's really hard evidence that the child is truly like that (and they're probably not, because they are a child ), is potentially make it a self-fulfilling prophecy - 'Well, they say I'm lazy even though I'm trying, so I might as well not bother' 'They call me a liar because I lied about something once, I might as well not bother being truthful'.

AINBU - Shaming never helps
AIBU - actually I have seen/experienced a situation where it helped

Sorry, this probably isn't very well framed but I hope people see what I'm getting at.

Shaming is hugely damaging to anyone's self esteem. I like the Nurtured Heart Approach which does the opposite - names and labels desirable traits and qualities to reinforce them and improve self esteem. This was developed for very difficult children.

I went to school with a guy who was regularly told he was a waste of space, would never amount to anything, the was thick (80s school). He's the partner of a large game development company. He said when he was told that he thought 'I'll show you'. Found someone who believed him after school, put him through college after which he got a job, worked his way up and then started his own business.

Another chap, same year, same story - left school, fell into a bad crowd, drugs, in and out of prison. Because he believed he was no good, so there was no point trying.

My son was often labelled as 'lazy' or a 'low achiever' at school so he lived up to those labels. In fact, he had un-diagnosed learning difficulties (Aspergers, dyspraxia and dysgraphia)

The kids at my secondary school used peer pressure and shaming liberally and it definitely changed the behaviour of most of those affected. But labels not so much.

That's a very good point @iklboo - it is true there are some who will rise above it and determine to prove people wrong, but I think they are an exception and that most people will just lower themselves to it

@Echobelly - I agree. The first guy was just a bit cheeky and messed about in class. But certain teachers didn't like him so they made those comments. He took things with a pinch of salt.

The second one took things more literally and to heart. Very much a 'why bother then?' And all these comments were from a fairly early age. It disheartened him to a point where he didn't care anymore because they couldn't hurt him anymore. He played up to their idea of him. He's turned his life around now but it took a very long time to believe in himself.

How is describing someone accurately negative labelling?
If a child is lazy, surely you can’t describe them as hard working or motivated. That would be a lie.
If a child is thick you can’t say they are bright because that would be a lie too.
I don’t see how lying helps anyone.

I think some kids have managed to push through people labelling them negatively, of course, but I dont think shaming a child as a way to motivate them is in any way a decent thing to do.

Shaming doesn't work. My parents constantly tried to shame me, because I wasn't good enough child as I was. My dad believe in 'tough love', whereby he thought if he shouted and put you down in front of others you would want to 'pick yourself up and prove him wrong'. Didn't happen. All it did was make me hate him and hate myself in the process for being such a crap person.

Now looking back I WASN'T a crap child, I was a really good one, but I had crap parents that criticised and labelled me too much.

I don't actually believe in shaming and humiliating kids but I think it's untrue to say that it always has a negative effect. My form teacher at secondary school constantly told me I was lazy, a liar, dishonest, thick, would never pass an exam etc. Which was kind of ironic because I was sitting well into the top half of the class in a competitive grammar school. But nothing I could do pleased him, nothing. He certainly motivated me to make sure that I proved him wrong.

I do think personally it has a negative impact. I had a primary school teacher who said I was very lazy at about 7 and it really stayed with me. She also told my parents I wasn't that clever and would never go to university because I was very bad at maths.

I did get As and A*s in GCSEs etc and did go to a good uni, but I've remained convinced I was terrible at maths although I got a GCSE B grade in the end. I just remember never really trying at school because I thought I was so bad. Objectively though I have to say maths really isn't my strong point and I don't think I'm particularly good at it but being told how useless I was really exacerbated it.

I also really wanted to be a teacher when I grew up and I remember her telling me at 7 that I didn't want to do that because I'd have to teach children like me (implying I was a horrible child I guess.)

The next year I had a lovely new teacher and I did everything I could to impress her and I remember my school report being completely different from the previous year. I was and still am really motivated by recognition, I think.

But on a population level I wouldn't say it always has a negative effect. Some children might react differently and be driven to prove themselves I guess

I was labelled as a bit thick, so assumed I was and didn't attempt A levels or uni. I started a min wage job ( as was expected to be my expected level of attainment ) got incredibly bored and worked up, changed sectors several times, did a couple of vocational courses at night school. I've ended up doing waaaaay better and out earning all my peers.
So yes, I think it can become a self fulfilling prophecy for some, as it wasnt until a year or two ago I realised I wasn't a bit thick in the slightest.

• How is describing someone accurately negative labelling? If a child is lazy, surely you can’t describe them as hard working or motivated. That would be a lie. If a child is thick you can’t say they are bright because that would be a lie too. I don’t see how lying helps anyone.*

You would honestly say to a child's face they are thick, lazy, a waste of space? Really? To their face? Calling a child 'thick' is disgraceful unless your IQ is higher than Stephen Hawking's.

My sons school decided that shaming a child who was bored to tears and bullied would sort the whole thing out. He ended up having a breakdown and considering suicide. Mild shame to a child with secure self esteem can help them realise what they need to do. Shame piled upon shame can be life destroying.

There is a good Ted talk (I think) about the difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is external, linked to your actions and can motivate you to do better. Shame is internal and linked to who you are as a person, generally damaging and compounds problems.
It's worth a look. It makes me sad that parents actually think speaking to their children like that is OK.

I’m cynical about labels given to children in general, you never know how a person is going to turn out

My mum was told by a teacher when my brother was at primary school, that he would never amount to anything. He has a PhD from Oxbridge . So yeah hasn’t done that badly.... The teacher disliked us both and my mum used to describe her as an old bag. She was especially miserable and mean. I don’t think it impacted on my brother either way, from an early age it was obvious he is bright

I think the problem with labeling children is you don't know a lot of things. For one thing, they could grow out of it. A 'lazy' child could be trying really hard but just not able to do something/have a learning difficulty/ be non-neurotypical. And kids in general, imo, do quite often lie (badly), they care careless with stuff, they can behave ungrateful,but they are children and they are learning how to behave, so I think people sometimes have unrealistic expectations of them and end up calling out the child and not the behaviour they need to stop doing. Which, rather than teaching the child 'I mustn't do that' teaches them 'this is how I am and I can't change'