To aim for Magic Circle law?

[twinzel]

I'm coming up to the end of my training contract in a regional firm (small/medium sized). I have a 1st in my law degree but it isn't from a Russell Group (top 30 uni) and a distinction in the LPC.
Is there any point applying?

So I guess the consensus is to get into London initially and see how high I can go from there.

Its who you know...as the saying goes. Lots of nepotism going on.

I'd go for it but do make appllications to other types of firms (including non-magic circle but large international) so you have fall back. When I was applying for training contracts (I know not quite the same), I got a lot of snobbery about what university and schools I went to and the fact I worked full time whilst doing GDL and LPC. One American firm even called me after interview and told me not to bother applying for the international firms because I'd never get in (and she hoped she'd been helpful in telling me).

I got in at a huge international law firm because I could demonstrate what they were looking for just not in the conventional way.

If you do apply then what do you stand to lose? If you don't apply then what do you stand to lose?

If you don't apply you'll always wonder 'what if' and you might miss out on the chance you are hoping for.

What exactly is your motivation tho OP? Do you want to work at a magic because of the work, the career prospects, the money? Work out what it is you're looking for and how many ways you can potentially make that happen. And call a recruitment consultant for some more specific and accurate advice. They will be able to tell you if anyone is looking for NQs and will look at your CV to give you a realistic idea of where you might be able to go/advise on how to polish it up.

@ShineyMcShine no nepotism for me unfortunately - I am from up north, didnt go to Oxbridge and dont know anyone!! I didnt see any nepotism in my time to be honest- you don't survive in that environment if all you're offering is your contacts.

My friend works for a good regional law firm and their junior lawyers are always going to good firms in London. Maybe not magic circle but certainly silver circle firms.

Also the magic circle isn’t the be all and end all. All my mates that trained at magic circle firms left after about two to three years as the work life balance was rubbish and they didn’t pay as well as US firms.

@emsyj37 I’m involved in interviewing lateral hires for our team now (at least, I was pre-lockdown) and what I’ve said is completely accurate for today - guessing the market was pretty different 14 years ago!

It’s different from trainee recruitment where the focus is very much on academics as they don’t have any practical experience to fall back on. But if we are looking for someone to fill a certain role as a qualified lawyer then ultimately we don’t care about whether they got a first or a 2.1 from whatever university if they have the right experience for that role. Obviously as an NQ you do fall slightly in between as the experience you’ll have had as a trainee may be limited. But again if you perform well at interview there’s no reason why we wouldn’t pick a candidate from a non-Russell group over someone from Oxbridge for example.

For the OP, the issue is not going to be her academics, it’s going to be that the work she has done in her regional firm is unlikely to be readily transferable for roles in the city.

@emsyj37 asks the most relevant question- what is it about MC that appeals? What’s coming through from your posts is that you’re not really sure about MC, and that would concern me. The work is very different (as a junior associate) - think tiny cog in huge wheel- but you will learn.

(Though personally I don’t rate MC lawyers all that much- there are many equally good lawyers outside the MC and in-house, and I think the work is much more interesting, but there is a reason I left ...)

@emsyj37 I agree with you. My DH and I have been at MC firms for over 20 years and not a hint of nepotism where we work. I came here from the antipodes and didn’t know a soul. Husband knew no one Who worked in the City. We have never seen anyone get a job on who they know. All down to academics to get the interview (even at partner level) and then performance at interview and referees. My DH even had to have an IQ test to progress to senior partner! But never, ever, seen nepotism and we’re at two different MC firms.

Do you want to work in derivatives or other similar less popular areas? But as others have said it will be easier if you focus on getting a job in London at a boutique firm that does work similar to what you would want to eventually do at an MC firm (make sure that firm’s department is ranked highly by Legal 500/Chambers if you want your experience to mean anything to an MC firm).

Then at 2-4 years pqe you can try moving as that point the MC firms start losing a lot of their associates to US firms, boutique firms and in-house roles.

I don’t know why you would want to work at an MC firm anyway- they’re not all what the they are marketed to be. what’s your work life balance like now?

I did say myself that my experience is possibly out of date in the sense that the job market was much more active when I moved - although the crash happened when I was relatively newly installed in my job. I think we are actually in agreement on the key points, which I think are that there are not as many jobs available now and so likely to be fewer external NQ hires, and experience in a regional firm is unlikely to be relevant to the work at a MC (or any corporate city firm really). Hence this was presumably why the firm were interested in my academics as an indicator of potential.
I was recruited into an area that was unpopular, hence the vacancy - the advice of a PP to look at insolvency as a potential area is good i think - if you can squeeze in where there is a little space caused by a shortage then its a good opportunity.

No harm in applying but it will be tough.

I'm not even magic (am at silver/ international) and they still do care about Russell group university/ previous firms a lot - even at 10 year pqe.

Seems snobby to me but best of luck and it can happen!

Yes @emsyj37 I do agree with all that.

I’d also say that the distinction between magic/silver/US firm is a bit of a red herring and massively depends on the work you do. My team is fairly niche and is ranked in Band 1 for our area. In every case I’ve been involved in we’ve been opposite a couple of the MC firms and also a big firm (not sure what category you’d put them in - big English firm that merged with a US firm recently). We are more highly ranked than the other MC firms. In other practice areas my firm is more on a par with the likes of Pinsents/Eversheds so it really depends. The atmosphere between the different MC firms is also very different so it’s quite blinkered to just pursue MC.

Having done my TC in a magic circle firm (I then fell pregnant and decided to leave, for a number of reasons) but I can tell you first hand that unless you went to a handful of very specific universities, you stand little to no chance of even getting an interview. It’s dire and a big part of the reason I left, but it’s the sad truth. Coupled with the fact you didn’t do your TC in either a magic circle firm or in some cases, a silver circle firm, this just makes it even more difficult.

@whatwillsantabring @emsyj37 I don't mind non MC firms as long as they are in London. I am sick of my pay - I earn under 20k net! With a 1st from a good (although not an excellent) uni I should really be on a decent salary

I work very standard 9-5 hours atm although I know the hours are much longer in MC firms. What are smaller London firms like?

@twinzel what area do you want to qualify into?

I think hours in general are longer in London, wherever you work. I'm a civil servant now and I work up north - im aware that colleagues doing the same job as me in Central London are in the office much longer hours. The hours you work will be dictated by the type of work you do to a large extent.

I did my TC in a debatable Magic Circle firm (the litigationy one). Wouldn't go back. I occasionally miss it when interesting stuff is happening but the life of an NQ/junior associate looked pretty shit, no transactions small enough to lead on, just elements of bigger things, hours hellish...

Romance of the big deals, being at the "best" firm is bullshit.

If you want London and have an area you want to qualify into, go for one of the mid sized regional/London firms or boutique. Or go in house. If you want the pay go US.

Roll on Friday is the best place for gossip still I assume!

@emsyj37 (and others who have left the profession), what do you now do?

@Notthetoothfairy I am a civil servant. I did a graduate scheme with a govt department.

OP- I was in practice in a MC firm and have now moved into a management role, part of which involves recruitment. I’d echo what other posters have said- you need to be clear of your motivation, and what area you want to qualify into. They are all so different, and any partners interviewing would want to be confident of your reasoning for applying for a particular specialism.

Generally, 18 months- 4 years pqe is a very marketable stage, so as others have said, maybe look to move in 2 stages- a strong but non-MC firm to gain experience, then another move when you have a good track record.

Also, be ready for the culture shock. As well as much longer hours, you will probably have a longer commute too (once we all stop working from home!) which can all be fairly exhausting.

I have a base in London already so that's good!

I have no idea what I want to qualify into. Am I limited to my training contract seats?

Insolvency. That’s obviously the way to go right now!