To think 31 is too old to train as a barrister?

[Tollyray]

I’m 31 and always wanted to be a barrister, but for various reasons I never did. I have a degree in English Literature and a Masters in Global Diplomacy.

However, I do keep thinking about how I regret not training to be a barrister, but I also realise it’s probably pie in the sky and I’m underestimating the work involved.

AIBU to think 31 too old to thinking about retraining? And if not, then has anyone else done similar and is able to tell me exactly what is involved, which courses need to be studied etc? I’m only just starting to properly research the subject.

Not too old at all, BUT (and it's a big but) your academic credentials will need to be excellent - good degree from a prestigious university, and a strong career to date (not necessary to be in law but whatever you've chosen you'll need to show that you excel).

Pupillage is extremely competitive, so chambers tend to sift out anyone who doesn't have the above.

I agree totally with the others who’ve said no, not too old at all. But it’s a very long hard path. Make sure you know exactly what it entails and that it’s really what you want.

I think it depends on the area of law as well. A family friend was a solicitor for many years representing children in the system, she went on to do a pupillage with a firm she had close contacts with and appreciated her specialism. She is mid 40's and qualified as a Barrister a couple of yrs ago

oh and no no oxbridge etc

@ThisIsTheBadger

You aren't to old at all. Law is very competitive though, and being a barrister is probably the most competitive field of law.

My sister is in that field, and says that employers and recruiters can be quite snobby about your qualifications and which uni you went to (if you train at Oxbridge, opportunities will be absolutely thrown at you, if you go to a Russel group, then you will get an average amount of opportunities, and I'd you go anywhere else then you stand very little chance).

Best of luck

Opportunities really aren't thrown at you even if you have an Oxbridge first - it's still pretty hard to get pupillage no matter what your background.

You are extraordinarily unlikely to obtain a pupillage unless you are academically brilliant AND have excellent connections to someone who can help pull strings for you. I'm guessing if you had those connections, you'd be speaking to them rather than asking mumsnet. Anyone telling you this is a good idea is doing you a great disservice.

@Strawberrypancakes

Coincidentally, one of the parents at my DD’s school is a barrister at a really good chambers and strongly advises everyone not to do it.

In my experience there aren't many professions that people in that profession now would recommend!

Wouldn't bother - the amount of people with both law degrees and indeed LPCs and BPCs working as legal executives (especially in places like LAs etc) is staggering.

As wrong as it may be, both the perceived quality of the university you attended AND personal "links" you may have with places are hugely important in securing a training contract or puppilage.

As someone said - if you had the "right" connections (judges, senior barristers in chambers) you would probably be asking them rather than on MN!

Oxbridge isn't a magic bullet either. FWIW, I know two oxbridge law graduates with great exams who couldn't get pupillage and whose careers were somewhat derailed compared with contemporaries who went to Magic Circle or investment banking/high end financial services after flying a waiting pattern around pupillage for too long. One had good family connections to a couple of chambers too, presumably not good enough connections.

I nearly did this at the same age. Did a few mini pupillages and met as many barristers as I could. One of the main reasons why I decided it was too late for me was that female barristers warned me that starting at that age would be incompatible with having children. You might want to consider that? See this current Twitter thread: twitter.com/seeyouatthebar/status/1282292297296642048

Thank you all for such swift, honest responses.

To answer a few questions -

I would be interested in human rights elements of law, especially that involving injustices to women. That is why the idea of being a barrister appeals.

I did my first degree at Northumbria University, so definitely not Oxbridge standard, and my masters at SOAS at the University of London.

I briefly worked as a journalist and since then have worked in politics. I don’t have any personal connections to anyone who works in law.

I don’t want children so that isn’t a consideration.

Would retraining as a solicitor be ‘easier’ - not in the sense of the work involved but in the sense that it removes the need to secure a seemingly impossible pupillage?

Would retraining as a solicitor be ‘easier’ - not in the sense of the work involved but in the sense that it removes the need to secure a seemingly impossible pupillage?

Haha! No

And if you want to practise that sort of law as a solicitor you'd be looking at working in London and not earning much money. Plus you'd probably find it very difficult to get a training contract. Your university isn't great I'm afraid and law is quite a traditional profession.

I'm always trying to put people off going into law. Every CV that come in seems to have 10A GCSEs 4 A Alevels and a first from Oxbridge pus a solid couple of years earning minimum wage and excelling as a paralegal.

So you'd have two years of law school followed by 1-2 years paralegal work and two years of training before you qualify. Then you'd be going into a profession with no work life balance and working alongside people who are very intelligent, have extremely high expectations and don't suffer fools gladly (which can have a tendency to make them a bit unpleasant to work with). Plus most law firms are making redundancies at the moment rather than recruiting expensive trainees as we are likely to be plunging onto global recession.

I think you maybe have a rather idealised view of doing "good" since the roles of solicitor and barrister are not the same at all so it seems you are more enamoured with the idea of working in this field. Charity work might be a better option?

and since then have worked in politics.

Coy ... MP? Lobbyist? Senior civil servant? Admin assistant? It makes a difference.

As for becoming a solicitor. Chase up some solicitors, do some - I forget the word, equivalent of mini-pupillages, see if any firms might be willing to consider you for a training contract. (I believe these need to be arranged well in advance.) If they are they'll probably pay for the conversion course as well as the LPC. Do not step foot on this route without a training contract. I've seen too many people remortgage their houses and end up with no career to show for it.

Others take the Legal Executive route - someone else will know about that.

Many lawyers hate being lawyers. What do you know about it. Have you done much/any work experience?

I'm a solicitor (not human rights though, I'm a commercial litigator) and I work with a lot of barristers. As others have said, it's very competitive and if you don't have excellent academic qualifications you will struggle to get pupillage interviews. If you want to get an idea of the standard, have a look at the websites of various barristers' chambers specialising in human rights - e.g. Matrix You will see that the majority have first class degrees from Oxford and also have qualifications like the Bachelor of Civil Laws. The GDL/BVC is the easy bit.

Most of the barristers I work with are absolutely brilliant, both from an intellectual perspective and in terms of working very hard and efficiently. The work can be very high pressured and there's the added challenge (or advantage?) of being self-employed. I don't think I would be able to do it.

I would say that training as a solicitor is a bit easier, but still not easy. Instead of a pupillage you have to get a training contract, which sometimes have 1,000 applications for one place. If you have a first from a redbrick university or Oxford/Cambridge it won't be too difficult, but solicitors' firms are still generally very snobby about qualifications. Some firms will pay for your training, but that's mostly City firms, so it's still a big financial commitment.

I don't actually enjoy my job very much - it's not about "justice" as much as doing what your client wants (within the bounds of professional ethics of course). Massive amounts of reading and writing, analysing (sometimes) very boring papers etc. Be aware that even in a field like human rights you can end up with some quite unsavoury clients and actually be instructed to act against the underdog, so have a think about how you would feel about that.

Also think about how you would feel about starting right at the bottom of the food chain, being told what to do by people younger than you etc. Law is very hierarchical, and that's probably one of the main things that would put me off about joining it as a mature trainee/pupil, but others might not have a problem with it.

They’re just about to shake up the whole dam system with the super exam. It was supposed to start in sept 2020, but given the covid situation, I’m unsure if it will be implemented now but it is supposed to get rid of the training contract element of the qualification. But firms don’t have to accept people who qualify through that route and will still want significant experience.

Further the area of law you want to work in is hugely competitive. With even the best and brightest struggling to get their foot in the door to get that type of work.

There is a lot you can do and is dependant on the experience you have in your working life. I know some firms who would snap you up for having life experience and others who would never look at your CV as an older NQ.

Plus there was a poster above who warned about the impact of a recession - firms are already preparing for a financial downturn and several large commercial firms are trying to retain their newly qualified, but can’t even guarantee to do that, so legal recruitment will be very tough over the next few years.

OP getting a training contract is very very hard. It's hard when you have 4As at A level an oxbridge degree and a linear CV. If you want to do it you need to do a lot of research before you commit yourself.

You need to do a conversion (GDL or similar), then BVC then pupillage. So you might be able to do it in 3.5-4 years

You are probably going to work for another 40 years. You have plenty of time to train and become a barrister.

It's not the time that's the issue here

I'd agree, human rights law as a solicitor is also very difficult to get into. It doesn't sound like you have thought that much about what the work would involve, more that you want to work in that area generally. And yes, get some work experience and mini pupillages and think about your contacts.

@PerditaProvokesEnmity

and since then have worked in politics.

Coy ... MP? Lobbyist? Senior civil servant? Admin assistant? It makes a difference.

As for becoming a solicitor. Chase up some solicitors, do some - I forget the word, equivalent of mini-pupillages, see if any firms might be willing to consider you for a training contract. (I believe these need to be arranged well in advance.) If they are they'll probably pay for the conversion course as well as the LPC. Do not step foot on this route without a training contract. I've seen too many people remortgage their houses and end up with no career to show for it.

Others take the Legal Executive route - someone else will know about that.

I was trying not to b too recognisable but I don't suppose it matters for this thread. I work as an MP's advisor & I'm a local councillor too.

Whoever asked - I don't know a lot about working in law at all.

If you're particularly interested in advocacy then work as a litigation/dispute resolution specialist (particularly at a mid-sized firm) will probably offer good scope for that. I do a lot of my own advocacy (I haven't done higher rights however so can only appear in certain courts). There is quite a difference in the role of a solicitor and barrister though.

You've mentioned quite a specific area of interest (human rights, particularly involving injustices to women). While you can of course try to work at a firm or chambers which specialises in related areas, it's worth bearing in mind that, until you get more senior at least, you may have little choice about the matters you take on. I'm not saying don't do it, but it's worth doing a lot of research and being fully aware of what you're getting into. I think law is a very rewarding career, and it's very possible to have a good work/life balance as a solicitor - I think I do - it depends where you work to some extent, you couldn't drag me to a magic circle firm for any money! (I also wouldn't consider working as a barrister though!)

If you are potentially interested in the solicitor route, I agree with the pp who suggested that you try to secure a training contract before starting your studies. Often the firm will pay for the GDL and LPC. I'm not sure I would have taken the LPC if I'd had to pay myself and may have done something else instead. I don't think many of my class mates already had a training contract at the time though, and the majority of those I've stayed in touch with (7 years later) have qualified and are practising.

Good luck!

Don’t do a conversion to become a solicitor if that’s what you’re considering. Hold off, do the SQE (SRA haven’t indicated any plans to hold off on it).

I work in legal education, and I’m legally trained. PM me if you like, OP, I’ll help where I can.

Another one suggesting the solicitor route. As a trainee I was once asked by a barrister ( that I was instructing) why I'd not chosen to go to the bar. I explained that had no money and no connections so I didn't see it as possible . And that was 25 years ago!

Get a training contract, go into litigation and become a solicitor advocate. Still hard but more likely to be successful.