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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to have assumed Beavers was about camping rather than religion??

93 replies

23balloons · 27/09/2007 17:37

I recently got ds a place at Beavers. We have moved into the area in the last few months and I thought it would be a good way to meet local children as well as having fun, learning to tie knots etc.

He has just completed his 3 weeks trial and spent most of that time playing football, skittles, racing games, drawing etc. Last night when I collected him he had a pledge for next week and a list of what would be happening this term. A visit to Church, a night spent writing prayers, a night when parents come and read prayers, a request for him to attend a Harvest Festival mass in uniform at a local church- on at the same time we attend our own Catholic Church? We are Catholic and ds attends a Catholic School but out of the neighbourhood. I was quite shocked actually and had no idea that Beavers was so religious. I think he is doing a lot of this to obtain a 'faith badge'.

Does anybody know if this is the reason for the 'church' theme or was I totally naive? Are the Beavers are some sort of religious cult?

OP posts:

3madboys · 27/09/2007 21:42

when my ds1 made his beaver promise the wording was something to do with 'my god' so that it covered all relgious beliefs iyswim, he is just about to be enrolled in cubs and again the wording is the same, 'my god' rather than god so that it can mean whichever god you believe in. ds1 has not had to do anything particularly religous, i think he has attended one church service after a parade that they did.

pointydog · 27/09/2007 21:43

The thing is, 3mad, you are not included if you haven't got a god at all. That's madame's point.

fortyplus · 27/09/2007 21:47

My 2 went through Beavers/Cubs/Scouts. The Scout association started life as a Christian organisation, but now encompasses other faiths. The level to which this is apparent very much depends on the leaders. You'll probably find that invites are extended to the Beaver Colony from the local church on all the main Christian festivals, plus the Mother's Day service. However, if your lot are anything like mine were, then only a handful of boys will attend the church services. I am a total atheist, but dutifully trooped off to church because mine enjoyed it - especially when they got to carry the banner!

TinyGang · 27/09/2007 21:47

Tell me...does the fact that it's called Beavers ever stop being funny? I always feel ridiculous saying ds wants to be a Beaver and want to laugh but everyone else is always po-faced about it.

fortyplus · 27/09/2007 21:48

pointydog - oh yes... you do have to keep quiet about being an unbeliever!

fortyplus · 27/09/2007 21:49

TinyGang - you will snort when you hear that I was a helper and was referred to as 'Black Beaver'

Then the kids started joking that I was evil and started calling me 'Evil Beaver'!!!

TinyGang · 27/09/2007 21:52

Sorry I have lowered the tone of a serious debate. I'll get me coat...

pointydog · 27/09/2007 21:53

roflroiflroflrofl @ Black Beaver

ladymariner · 27/09/2007 21:55

Love it, forty

3madboys · 27/09/2007 22:00

well we arent religious AT ALL and ds1 says he doesnt believe in a relgious god but he belives in the god of lego if thats good enough for him then its good enough for me

mrsdarcy · 27/09/2007 22:08

I still snigger at "Beavers", especially after my boy's leader referred to an instruction that "...the meeting's on Saturday and you must show all your beavers".

nooka · 27/09/2007 22:30

3madboys, that's just the sort of thing my ds would try. We are aetheists, and ds is quite keen, whereas dd has decided that she is a Christian (there is a that visits their non religious school that she has taken a shine to, plus she likes the stories). ds is quite open about his non belief, and we wouldn't subject him to cubs (he's 8) anyway, but if he wanted to do it, I'm sure he'd think of some way to subvert the system

fortyplus · 27/09/2007 22:48

Shall I shange my mn name to EvilBeaver?!

PillockOfTheCommunity · 27/09/2007 23:06

well I was called Blue Beaver

PillockOfTheCommunity · 27/09/2007 23:07

I was in 6th form at the time, cue lots of comments along the lines of "is it cold then?" from the lads at school

SSSandy2 · 28/09/2007 10:03

Ok so I think as practising Catholics none of what they are doing there is going to be so weird that it will faze your ds. I would stick with it if he's enjoying it and give it a try. Maybe it's less alarming than you think at the moment. And as you say, it is a good way for him to make friends among the locals. I agree with whoever said that if attends a Catholic school and church he will know more about religion probably than most dc in the group. I think he can handle the prayers, the visit to the church and the pledge. Nothing too whacky there I don't think.

Maybe you can just opt out of the harvest festival thing by saying that it is at the same time as your own church service but you would still like to contribute something or whatever.

Keep an eye on it maybe, hang about a bit "helping" and if you don't like what you see, you could just withdraw him without raising any shackles by saying unfortunately much as he loved it, time constraints etc etc no longer feasible.

Maybe also they don't know you're Catholic? Just assume that you'd be nominally COE or something.

suenorth · 02/10/2007 12:58

Wish I'd seen this thread while it was still active... Am wrestling with the issue Madamez raised just now. My dd (6) has just joined Rainbows and is due to make her promise in a few weeks. I read it out to her when we were talking about Rainbows and she said "well I can't say that because I don't believe in god". She is now really upset about this and thinks she'll have to leave Rainbows. I've tried talking to her about other things she could think about when she says the word 'god' like mother nature or humanist concepts of morality but she's not convinced.

I can't ask her to just say the words and have it not mean anything - what does that teach her about life? DH says she'll have to leave and this'll teach her how divisive religion can be. It all just seems a bit hard on a 6 year old who just wants to have fun with her friends.

The leader of the group is very approachable, but I feel bad asking her to let DD not do the promise when it is a big part of the premise of the group.

I know I'm being unrealistic to expect someone to come up with a way out of this... but has anyone had this before? Any suggestions? And failing that anyone want to buy a 'worn once' Rainbows uniform!

SueBarooeeooeeooooo · 02/10/2007 13:11

That's a tricky one. I've not got any advice, really, other than to speak to the leader about it. They might be able to tweak it to accomodate your Dd.

suenorth · 02/10/2007 18:06

Thanks SueB I'll try that.

suenorth · 02/10/2007 20:18

Bump... for evening mn'rs... DD now has sore tummy from the stress.

SueBarooeeooeeooooo · 02/10/2007 20:52

I was thinking about this some more. If it is the big conscience issue that your DD feels that is (I'm not disputing that), then might it be worth her speaking to the leader herself and explaining how she feels? Her own integrity should count for something.

suenorth · 02/10/2007 21:18

Yeah, I agree that it should count for something. And I'm proud of her for sticking to her guns on this. But clubs are allowed to have rules I suppose - even if we don't agree with them. I read that the British Humanist Association is lobbying to get the Scouting Association (I presume they'd extend the principle to guiding too) to get them to extend membership to children of no faith, since they've extended already from Christians to children of all faiths.

DH was a member of an unusual religion while at school and was always having to miss out on fun things and being made to feel different. Aside from my own personal feelings, I sort of hoped that raising my kids to respect all faiths and choose for themselves when they're old enough to do so would avoid all that. More fool me.

Sorry about the slightly off track rant but all this really winds me up. She's 6. She just wants to have fun with her friends. Shouldn't have to be worrying about religion getting in the way of life yet, surely?

SueBarooeeooeeooooo · 02/10/2007 21:24

Well, no, but I guess it is still a nominally 'religious' organization. Personally, we decided against it because it was a bit too wishy-swishy for us. I'd rather have no religious content than a sort of vague bleh.

Wracking brains for alternatives

Coming up short, sadly. We go to Girls Brigade, but that's clearly even more openly Christian, so it doesn't solve the problem for you. Maybe your smart cookie little girl could write a letter to them asking for them to take her views into account, and send it off to papers and that sort of thing, too.

MaureenMLove · 02/10/2007 21:39

I do Rainbows and I promise to bring this up at a District meeting that I am going to on Monday. Can't say that it bothers me either way tbh, but then I'm not particularly religious.

suenorth · 02/10/2007 22:24

Thanks Maureen, I'll be interested to hear what they say. I'm going to try and catch DD's Rainbows leader and see what lattitude she thinks there might be, as SueB suggested. Please post here with whatever you find out though. Thanks.

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