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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to have assumed Beavers was about camping rather than religion??

93 replies

23balloons · 27/09/2007 17:37

I recently got ds a place at Beavers. We have moved into the area in the last few months and I thought it would be a good way to meet local children as well as having fun, learning to tie knots etc.

He has just completed his 3 weeks trial and spent most of that time playing football, skittles, racing games, drawing etc. Last night when I collected him he had a pledge for next week and a list of what would be happening this term. A visit to Church, a night spent writing prayers, a night when parents come and read prayers, a request for him to attend a Harvest Festival mass in uniform at a local church- on at the same time we attend our own Catholic Church? We are Catholic and ds attends a Catholic School but out of the neighbourhood. I was quite shocked actually and had no idea that Beavers was so religious. I think he is doing a lot of this to obtain a 'faith badge'.

Does anybody know if this is the reason for the 'church' theme or was I totally naive? Are the Beavers are some sort of religious cult?

OP posts:
hippipotami · 27/09/2007 19:53

There is a religious element to it, but we (as non-believers) opted out of it. This basically meant ds did not have to do the prayers and opted out of the faith badge. I did let him go to the church visits and attend a talk by the reverend (same one who visits his non-denominational school), but the writing of prayers was one step too far for me (and ds who at age only 6 as he was then was completely bewildered by the whole idea of religion)

But it is only one badge. In a weeks' time they will be moving onto another badge and will all be collecting leaves and going on nature walks!

cornsilk · 27/09/2007 19:53

Pampam that's awful!

morningpaper · 27/09/2007 19:58

yes they are a militaristic religious cult and don't let gay people in

or something like that

pointydog · 27/09/2007 20:00

If he's doing a faith badge, fair enough, no?

Also depends a bit on the individuals who run the group.

PSCMUM · 27/09/2007 20:02

o god (ha!) what were you thinking?! Not only do is it religios but you also have to swear allegiance to the sodding queen! Well you did 20 years ago when i wanted to join guides anyway. Mu mum whipped me out of there so fast I didn't know what had happened. Republicanism was later explained to me and I thought yes, I agree, my children are not going to swearing allegiance to some poncing off the state old bag who has never done a days work in her life either! Amen.

Sure your local one is great though.

Blandmum · 27/09/2007 20:07

.....am I the only person childish enough to be sniggereing at the thought of religious beavers?

unknownrebelbang · 27/09/2007 20:08

well you were......

I guess not now though, lol.

PSCMUM · 27/09/2007 20:09

excellent image. All standing around with priest outfits and rosary beads, heads bowed solemly in prayer.

Flamesparrow · 27/09/2007 20:10

It always shatters my illusion when you say things like that MB - I try and picture my GCSE science teachers sniggering at religious beavers

Blandmum · 27/09/2007 20:12

[teachers are very often utterly vulgar, and snigger a lot on the common room (well named)]

mytwopenceworth · 27/09/2007 20:14

Not unreasonable, just not informed!

The promise mentions loving God and there is a Christian leaning!

MaureenMLove · 27/09/2007 20:21

It just sounds like the leaders have planned their terms activities around this one badge. I dont think its anything to worry about. Added to the fact that Havest in in a few weeks, followed by Remembrance Sunday, followed by Christmas, and it does sound like a faith overload! I run Rainbows and it is important that the girls understand the promise they make. 'I promise that I will do my best, to love my God and to be kind and helpful' Our meeting are held on church premises and the rent is exceptionally cheap, so all I ask is that once a month, for 2 hours on a Sunday, the girls remember their promise and at the same time show our thanks to the Church for letting us in cheap! We do say 'love MY god' though, so if a girl is of a different demomination, thats find. She's still remembering her promise.

I can't honestly remember where I was going with this, but I think I made some points!

Doodledootoo · 27/09/2007 20:23

Message withdrawn

Ellbell · 27/09/2007 20:26

Not sure about Beavers (as I have got dds and no brothers) but I my dds have just joined Rainbows/Brownies and I notice that the Promise has been adapted from 'my day' (900 thousand years ago ). Whereas we had to promise to 'love God', now they promise to 'love my God'. A subtle difference, but I assume introduced so that it's no longer exclusively Christian.

IME most Brownie/Guide (and therefore I guess Beaver/Cub/Scout) groups are linked to a local Church, but often only by virtue of meeting in the Church Hall. This is true for both my dds' groups, but whereas dd1's Brownies meet in the local CofE church hall, dd2's Rainbows meet at the Methodist church hall. We are off to the Methodist Harvest Festival on Sunday and will do the CofE one the following week.

I think that, in your place, I'd be feeling a bit uncomfortable if I were a non-Christian or an atheist, but since you're Catholic I don't honestly think you should worry. The ideas talked about and the prayers written/said will be generically Christian. I really doubt that, at this stage, they will be getting hung up on questions of doctrine. Perhaps you could have a quiet word with the leader and explain that you're a Catholic family and that your ds might have some different experiences from some of the other boys in the group. But tbh I suspect that the majority will be non-Church-going non-believers, so your ds will have a far better idea of what's going on than they will!

On the Harvest Festival, I'd just apologise and say that you're sorry but you have a previous engagement (or explain that that's when you attend your own Church). No-one will take offence... it's a club and it's meant to be fun - he can't be 'penalised' or told off for not going.

HTH

madamez · 27/09/2007 20:27

THose of you who are beaver/brownie etc leaders: what do you do with a free-from-religion child who hasn't got an imaginary friend to promise to love? Is the promise adaptable? If not, given that jurors and court witnesses etc are allowed to affirm rather than swear on a mythological text, it probably should be.

Ellbell · 27/09/2007 20:29

X-posted with Maureen.

mytwopenceworth · 27/09/2007 20:32

Yes MB, you are

cornsilk · 27/09/2007 20:33

madamez - what do jurors and court witnesses say when they affirm?

Original poster
23balloons · 27/09/2007 20:33

Thanks for all of your replies. I probably am over-reacting a bit but it genuinely came as a shock as religion hadn't been mentioned in the first 3 weeks. BTW they do not use a Church hall as they actually have their own premises but the main leader is groundsman for the local church I have discovered by looking at the church's website.

OP posts:
MaureenMLove · 27/09/2007 20:34

I have no idea Madamez! I do Rainbows, so I don't think it even occurs to a five year old and since I've been running it, its never come up. I will ask my fellow Guiders though, I'd be interested to know too.

pointydog · 27/09/2007 20:36

if people object that much, madame, they can just choose to send their kid to a non-religious org. It's not something anyone has to do.

madamez · 27/09/2007 21:14

Cornsilk: 'instead of 'I swear by almighty Zeus or whatever' it's 'I do solemnly and sincerely affirm'.

Pointydog: I appreciate that the scouting movement (thatdoes cover the lot, doesn't it) is not compulsory, but for people who live in isolated areas or just want their kids to attend a fun organisation that all their mates go to, are the free-from-religion supposed to teach their kids to fib, or what? You see, this is where this multo--'faith' thing bemuses me as the tenets of nearly all belief systems are that 'we' are right and all the rest are wrong. So an organisation either sticks to its own branch of mythology and insists on all members at least paying lip service to same - or it is open to everyone. Including the rational.

pointydog · 27/09/2007 21:21

No I don't teach my kids to fib.

I tell them about christianity and other religions when they come up (as in these circumstances) and we chat about it. IN simple terms, till they get older.

I enjoy the opportunity to talk about religion - and teh dds going to the odd religious event - as we don;t do anything religious ourselves.

madamez · 27/09/2007 21:24

Pointydog, sorry the point I was making is that, if the DC have to make a certain promise to belong to an organisation, and that promise involves professions of love for an imaginary friend, what should the rational DC do? LIe about having one?

pointydog · 27/09/2007 21:30

good moral question, madame.

Yes, my children made a promise to do something for their god (can't remember wording). At the time of the brownie promises, both my dds said they did believe in god.

If my children had said they didn't believe in god, I'd've said 'it's part of the promise, do you mind saying it or do you want me to speak to the leader?' I'm pretty sure they'd've said they didn't mind saying it. I strongly believe in letting them do whatever religious stuff they want regardless of reasoning at such a young age.