Gymnastics and elite sports bullying allegations

[BackInTime]

Following the story about allegations of bullying and abuse in gymnastics

news.sky.com/story/british-gymnastics-admits-error-for-not-telling-girls-parents-about-abuse-claims-12023055

Too often I think parents are afraid to question coaches for fear of reprisals. AIBU to think that parents need to be more careful of how far coaches push their DC in some cases and that it is not always a healthy environment?

I pulled DD from gymnastics as it was a really toxic environment. She was 4 when she was told she was "tubby" and had a real hang up over her tummy for ages.

Must say I was surprised at it being described across the board as bullying. I did gymnastics in Germany 20 years ago and physical correction of the splits not being far enough was the norm. Weight is an issue due to the power:weight ratio, although public weighing twice a day is a bit bizarre

That’s not what people are describing here.

Yes gymnastics is tough. I was physically stretched, yes it hurt, but no more than a hard gym session does as an adult. Physical activity is hard.

Tracking weight is normal too, as you say.

That is not abuse. That is not what people are complaining about.

Being locked in cupboards, being told you’re too fat to do leaps on the beam, humiliation, emotional manipulation, day in day out, physical assault.

Please don’t minimise what these girls and women have the courage to say.

If you're scared to report to the safeguarding lead, you can go directly to the police.

Yes, I understand that, but if the methods don't work, as PP said, the coaches wouldn't be successful.

Depends on how we define 'successful'. As others have said, a major part of the issue is the entire culture and mindset in these organizations and the incentives and disincentives that are in place. Is success in medals or future health?

When I was 17, I had a doctor explain it to me like this - it's a numbers game. Sure, they might have a handful of successful people with those methods, but how many didn't make it because of injuries or damage or ill health? Most with those injuries will heal just fine - not to compete, but he estimated 80%+ of those he saw overtrained would be fine to do most things with no pain. The rest, well, some end up with overtraining damage as kids that mean we spent the rest of our in pain. Is the coach still successful if they get someone on the podium if there are 10-20+ with overtraining damage, damage from the female athlete triad, or dysfunctional with anxiety because of their methods?

Things have gotten better in many sports, a lot more consideration and limits have been put in place than a few decades ago largely because people have come forward and been supported to discuss the harm going on, but there are still issues that those who do end up hurt so often blame themselves - that's the culture - if you couldn't push past the pain that's your fault - rather than looking at what the coaches are doing.

It's not that kids shouldn't play sports - though it is understandable why some parents are very wary of it - but that there is a great need for even more changes that will need a lot of incentive changes to make actually happen. Until everyone's well-being is considered, until it gets noticed how many kids are tossed aside, the most vicious can cover themselves with those who last the longest.

Gymnastics is brutal. My parents stopped it for me after I was instructed to continue drilling a floor routine with a suspected broken ankle. I had severe back issues by that point, and had developed disordered eating. The worst comment was when I started to develop, and a male coach was angry he had wasted his time as I clearly wasn’t the right physique anymore as I had “fat tits” that he then squeezed to demonstrate his point. I was 11. Years of training six days a week thrown out, and I hated my breasts for years as I felt they’d lost me my opportunity. I hope more comes to light, as now I’ve gotten older I cringe at the fact these people are now running the show. So many Larry Nassar characters around too.

My DH was selected for a professional team in his sport, and was treated well despite damaging his shoulder and being unable to continue his season. It’s so dependent on the sport, and whether they fancy being rude to a 6’4” man vs a five foot girl.

My DH was selected for a professional team in his sport, and was treated well despite damaging his shoulder and being unable to continue his season. It’s so dependent on the sport, and whether they fancy being rude to a 6’4” man vs a five foot girl

This can be in any sport. I’ve known kids be injured, not compete for years, be scared because of blocks, all sorts, and be told by the NGB there there, you’ll do it next time, don’t worry about your funding or selection to x international. Here’s
Several hundred pounds worth of physio and mri’s.

Then the same person tell other if they don’t compete because of injury funding is lost, if they don’t lose x weight they’re out, that they aren’t good enough despite consistently competing against and beating the above...

I think Dan Keatings said something about the part favouritism plays- if you’re “in”, you are in. If they don’t like you for whatever reason you have to prove yourself constantly. One mistake and you’re dumped.

“Funding” btw, is around 1k a month, tax free, for 15 year olds. Some can be as young as 13.

That’s “basic” for those selected to have “potential”.

Funding is also not results based. Unless they want it to be. Or don’t. It’s based on NGB discretion, as is selection.

Welfare in sport is generally crap, I’m a rugby player, so a different type of poor welfare as its a team sport and you don’t start serious training from a young ago. Lots of RU clubs sacked their welfare staff right at the start of lockdown, shows you exactly how clubs feel about their players.

The club I currently play for is fantastic and player welfare is their main priority. I used to play in a much higher league and we were paid fuck all to get twatted twice a week, the youth program was equally awful.

Yes, I understand that, but if the methods don't work, as PP said, the coaches wouldn't be successful.

The methods may work for some but at what cost to physical and mental health. There will also be those with potential who fall by the wayside because of such methods.

As previously mentioned I think parents have a big role to play here, put aside medal dreams and put their DCs welfare first.

@Rainbow12e Your poor niece that was assault. Were her parents aware of this at the time?

Pretty much the same situation with USA gymnastics after the Larry Nassar scandal

As previously mentioned I think parents have a big role to play here, put aside medal dreams and put their DCs welfare first

Parents often don’t know.

Read every sport narrative- even the nspcc advert focusses on parents encouraging from the sidelines, saying it’s the parents that cause the problems in sport...

We’re told to trust the coaches, don’t interfere, don’t coach your child, the coaches know what they’re doing. That we should just cheer from the sidelines, ask the child if they enjoyed it, nothing more. Don’t compare, don’t ask your child if they did x or y in practice...

It’s a backlash from the pushy parents on the sidelines, and makes sense, if the coaches were holding their side of the bargain, and if parents were listened to when they raise concerns, and not dismissed as pushy or not knowing what they’re talking about.

DD is 8 and was a squad gymnast pre-lockdown. I'm going to seriously consider whether she goes back. She excels at bars and frequently came back with bleeding hands. When I e mailed her coach to ask if I should get her gloves, I was told no, she wasn't allowed gloves, because her hands had to toughen up and she had to train through it until they did.

Parents often don’t know.

That was very clear in the US example - parents were excluded from training camps (they didn't even have decent mobile signal). And yes with hindsight that was part of the problem but that was how the national training took place - there was no other option at that level. And it is not unreasonable to assume you can trust a National governing body. So then you're just left with kids comparing notes and being told that what they are experiencing is what everyone else is experiencing so it must be ok. So then they don't mention it to their parents.

@bluebluezoo His sport was played in a different country. It was baseball, which is a markedly different culture to gymnastics. No paycheque was worth a public is sexual assault on an 11 year old or being told to practice on a broken ankle. I got a quarterly stipend, but the true costs of attendance can never be recouped.

The fact that decades on, young people are still being abused is a disgrace. I wouldn’t trust any intensive sport like that around my children, we focus much more on casual enjoyment and team sports.

@Rainbow12e I do agree that stretching or over stretching should be down to how far the gymnast feels comfortable. I guess the difficulty with coaches is trying to learn each individual gymnast and how far to push them, you may have Athlete 1 who complains over every little thing so would probably say 'this is as far as I can stretch' whilst Athlete 2 always works hard and says 'this is as far as I can stretch'. The coach should know the personality and flexibility of each individual and judge from there how far they should push them rather than make every person stretch the same, every body is different after all

To be “good” (aiming for National-level competitions) kids need to have been doing 10-hours plus by the age of around seven. Ramping up to over 20 hours by the time she left primary school.
Then you look at the attrition rate, the burn-outs, the “career ending” injuries in young children.... the obvious “up-or-out” culture where even very little kids get dropped from the “squad” stream. It’s brutal.

I can’t help but feel the whole thing is in itself apalling. So many sacrifice their childhood for an Olympic dream that so very very few will experience. with gymnastics seems like if you’re not working on a competitive programme by age 6 you’re out. How can a kid whose been coached for a “tough” program for as long as they can remember realise when it becomes abuse.

But. Gymnastics culture can be so “off” in so many clubs. Recreational classes subsidising the “competition stream”, the idea that if the squad aren’t “good enough” the club is a failure (never mind the numbers of recreational gymnasts who learn, get fit, have fun, etc), that the squad are the kids who matter and the rest are irrelevant.... etc.

KC8LL: if a kid doesn’t want to stretch as far as they are able, then it’s not up to the coach to physically make them.
Maybe talk about attitude, hard work, giving it 100%.... but if the kid is still not trying as hard as she could, then ultimately the coach can’t fix that and hasn’t the right to force it.

Competing at a high level in any sport is brutal. I don’t have experience of gymnastics, but both my children are competitive swimmers and the demands are crazy once you get to a certain level. DS1 is in the pool 8 times a week with land training on top of that. There comes a point where you have to ask if it’s really worth it. We’ll keep going until they decide to stop, but I can’t say I’ll miss it when they do.

Gymnastics is worse I think. The toll it takes on the body and the cut throat culture in the sport is shocking. If I had daughters I wouldn’t be keen for them to compete at a high level.

To be “good” (aiming for National-level competitions) kids need to have been doing 10-hours plus by the age of around seven. Ramping up to over 20 hours by the time she left primary school

There is no evidence that kids need to be doing these hours this early. It’s just what’s always been done.

Yes kids won’t progress as fast so quickly, but ultimately they are less likely to reach their potential as they burn out or injure.

Years ago BG brought in a series of competitions “grades” with set moves designed to slow talented kids- back in the 80’s when 12 year olds were competing in the olympics.

It was supposed to stop coaches pushing too fast and pace them for international competition at 16.

Then over the years the difficulty of the set moves got harder and harder, until now where we’re looking at very young kids doing very hard skills, where they do need to start at 6 on stupid hours to be able to hit that first grade at 8.

The other thing is it’s inextricably linked to age. You pass grade 5 at 8, 4 at 9, 3 at 10, 2 at 11, then two years of “espoir” and two years of junior.

That is effectively the only path to elite gymnastics. There are slower ones, but they aren’t really taken seriously and very few gymnasts qualify that way. Many clubs only pay attention to those kids hitting a grade at the correct year. There’s so many fall off and can’t get back on.

So as it stands it’s all but impossible to start gymnastics at 9, because you can’t pass those grades.

In my experience often the pushy parents do their best to cozy up to the coaches and will do anything to avoid rocking the boat. I guess kids pick up on this and would be afraid to speak out. I can also see where extreme training is normalised and so it's assumed that this is what is necessary to be successful.

I also the unique situation with gymnastics is that they start training and competing at a very high level at a very young age so it perhaps needs more oversight.