To ask if female lives matter as much as male?

[somm]

"According to the most recent official figures from India, there were some 40,000 reported rapes across the country.

Activists claim that the number is just the tip of the iceberg as many victims are terrified to report the crime due to the threat from the attackers and the stigma attached to the sexual assaults." www.thesun.co.uk/news/11953705/girl-gang-rapists-bruned-death/ [Not my spelling]. This article is about a 14 yr old.

The BLM demonstrations have brought massive injustices to the forefront, and will hopefully bring about real change. Anybody who's seen that image of the white American policeman pressing his knee onto a black person's neck, whilst so casually keeping his hands in his pockets, will probably not forget it.

However, it's likely that many females have suffered sexual/physical abuse and it's kept quiet, not reported, seen as part of being a female; wherever they live. Perhaps this is the start of a movement that can offer up equality for all.

Agree with the fact that women are still treated appallingly across the world, we still do not have equality despite being 50% of the population, however agree with the first response, BLM is its own movement, if we want to raise the issues faced by women across the world then it needs to be its own movement.

I am not sure that it is "feminism", that has its own ideologies and drivers, personally I think it should be an anti-mysogyny movement, something new and apart from feminism, whilst likely that feminists would form part of it. It is something that can include men, just like anti-racism can include white people who stand together with their BAME friends and families.

@EmperorCovidula - it really is unsurprising that the death of a black man prompted BLM when more black women die and have their lives cut short as a result of police brutality / racism in the US. Black women are more likely to die in childbirth, more likely to die when innocent during gang / drive-by / police shootings.

And i think we should not pit it against BLM, or any other movement, we fall by divide and conquer, there is room to fight for us all.

When a black man was suffocated to death there were global riots. When a woman is suffocated to death it’s called sex gone wrong and the man that did it to get gets away with sympathy. What do you think?

^This with bells on. And when a woman comes forward to report her rape, she finds herself on trial because she dared to have past relationships and to wear a short skirt. Because the poor man couldn't help himself.

She also has her phone taken away and examined to make sure she didn't lead him on.

Well there are many types of systemic discrimination which contribute to inequality. Racism , sexism, speciesism, ableism, etc.

And of course the resulting issues exacerbate each other when someone is subject to more than one type, so the whole adds up to more than the sum of its parts (intersectionality, as per Kimberlé Crenshaw). I.e. people who are members of multiple social minority groups experience a particular combination of inequalities that members of other groups don't.

E.g. women are treated poorly by HCPs, and black people are also treated poorly by HCPs. Often they have similar issues in these cases, e.g. both groups are patronised, ignored, pain is not taken seriously, conditions are missed or misdiagnosed, inappropriate types or doses of medication are given (there will also be issues the groups don't share). But if you are both black and female, it's likely to be worse in that regard than if you are only one of those things.

It is true we need to address the root causes of discrimination and inequality, rather than just the symptoms of each specific type, if that's what you mean.

But when someone is talking about one type of discrimination they suffer, that doesn't mean you need to try and compete with them by talking about your own suffering in a different area.

So no, female lives don't matter as much in this society. But you don't need to take the terminology used to highlight discrimination against black people to point it out. Unless you are both black and female, for example, in which case it would be appropriate to say "black women's lives matter".

Though it could be argued there aren't many succinct ways of pointing out these issues, so at some point you might have to end up using some of the same words. But there must be some different slogans already used to support feminism.

Oh, and don’t get me started on medical research being skewed towards men and the fact viagra is actually very helpful for women with heavy painful periods but we don’t use it because women suffering is natural and men’s dicks going floppy is a massive problem that we must combat immediately. Just look at how many births are badly handled resulting in PTSD (or as society knows it ‘baby blues’)

@thegreenlight have you ever watched Bodies? Medical drama set on an Obs/Gynae ward. Brilliantly done but will give you the absolute rage watching births and gynaecological problems mishandled by a well-meaning but totally inept consultant. (Max Beesley and Patrick Baladi)

We totally should no co-opt the BLM movement.

However, if the best examples anyone can find of women’s lives mattering are the lifeboats on the titanic and men going down coal mines then that argument is clearly a bit weak!!

Two women murdered in a park, police take ‘inappropriate’ photographs of them.

Black women, in the middle of a time of huge Black Lives Matter protests.

Rich women and the heir children were given priority for lifeboats.

We live in a patriarchal world. Of course female lives don't matter as much as male lives. There are hundreds of ways this manifests itself blatantly around the world. It's why we need feminism.

Women also get blamed when their partner is guilty of rape/sexual abuse. Sadly, that's an attitude very prevalent in churches still. A good friend of mine was told by her pastor that she was to blame for her DH sexually abusing her DD, because she couldn't have been a good enough wife to him. And he also told her that her DD shouldn't report it because it would bring shame on the church.

I also saw this attitude in my DM, when she wondered whether she was to blame for my F's SA of my DSis and me because she hadn't given him enough sex.

Whereas in reality that isn't anything to do with it, as SA is about power rather than sexual desire.

Considering it's overwhelmingly men who go off to war and die, and take on the most dangerous civilian jobs I'd say that societies generally value female LIVES more than male ones.

And when was the last time any man in your family or your experience went off to war and died? Contrast that with how many of the women in your family or experience have been raped/discriminated against on the basis of their sex.

Men can choose to join the armed forces in the expectation that they may have to sacrifice their lives. Unfortunately women don't choose to become female. We're stuck with lower pay, the constant threat of male violence, domestic abuse and murder, and all the other lovely sunny things that being female in a patriarchal society involves.

Of course women's lives don't matter as much as men's.

Hmmm, I am unsure how to respond. I think YANBU, in many respects male lives matter more, male privilege is a thing, and we need individually and collectively to act to challenge this, all the time.

But, I don’t agree with some of the comparisons drawn about BLM - I think it is absolutely correct that we all work to change the completely embedded structural racism that persists in all systems around the world. And that doing this does not negate other movements, or prioritise them.

We can acknowledge that racism is endemic and so is sexism/misogyny, without having to compare or suggest women’s rights are ‘more important’.

I agree that an anti-misogyny/male privilege movement is needed to effect change, but I think that George Floyd’s murder has triggered reflection less because he is a man and more because this shite has been going on for centuries. Women have also been shat on for centuries and while there are improvements, it’s not nearly enough.

Imo it’s important we think about ways to communicate that encourage empathy and don’t just get people’s backs up. I don’t mean that we don’t challenge or kick off when need be, but we have to think about what works. Ie, getting my DH to read a recent MN thread ‘the creepiest things men have said to you’ has stimulated more reflection in him and desire to challenge other men, than telling him ‘you have male privilege and your life matters more than mine’. Yes I believe that is true but he would immediately retaliate with all the difficulties he has faced that I haven’t. I think what BLM is doing successfully currently, that women’s movements need, is to stimulate long needed intelligent discussion on white supremacy and the need for white people to be uncomfortable enough to explore how they benefit from that.

Sorry that’s long so I hope makes sense!

I don't think the fight for women's rights should be pitted in competition with BLM - seems distasteful.

However, seeing that BLM (in general) is so much more likely to effect concrete change with the support of people who aren't black, makes me realise how much women need men on their side.
E.g. (to pick an 'easier' subtopic than rape and male violence, hardly any men, including other sports people (Daley Thompson and Andy Murray doo thankfully) are speaking out against the hostile takeover of women's sport by men.

@NeedToKnow101 It was very telling that there were a lot of raised eyebrows when Andy Murray hired a female coach. Never mind that the coach had been a number one tennis player at at least one point during her distinguished tennis career. Whereas there are no issues with female tennis players having male coaches.

The definition of rape in India isn’t the same as the UK. It often includes pedophilia but excludes marital / prostitute rape / sexual assault / molestation. According to various women’s groups in India almost all Indian women would have been raped or molested in their life time. Similar stats to South Korea where nearly 70% of schoolgirls reported being raped / molested.
Oh right. The problem is the terminology,not the fact the majority of females are sexually abused by males
Kind of proving OPs point. Noone really cares enough to tackle abuse of women.

The definition of rape in India isn’t the same as the UK. It often includes pedophilia but excludes marital / prostitute rape / sexual assault / molestation. According to various women’s groups in India almost all Indian women would have been raped or molested in their life time. Similar stats to South Korea where nearly 70% of schoolgirls reported being raped / molested.

The worst thing about this is actually that the women are shamed in those scenarios. They are deemed to be to blame; in some countries they can be stoned to death for adultery. Other women end up having to go into prostitution to support their families. (It's what I've picked up through working for a charity helping Central Asian women.)

Sorry; I didn't mean to equate what's happening with the BLM movement and what's happening to females all over the world. I know they're totally separate issues. (And I think I may now have reported myself without meaning to :-).) I certainly didn't mean to suggest women's rights are 'more important'. I want to believe that if the BLM movement creates positive change towards equality, then women's experience in many countries may follow.

Oh yeah sorry OP, the ‘more important comment wasn’t really at you, there was a PP who was suggesting that and I was blending my reactions to the whole thread in my answer, rather than your post. I agree there are interesting parallels that we can learn from.