Do we need to accept that some businesses / activities are simply not viable in a pandemic?

[Redolent]

Arizona is becoming the national hotspot for covid in the US...huge resurgence in cases and hospitalizations. They’ve opened up bars, restaurants etc and they’ve been absolutely packed for a month now with no social distancing in sight. Eg attached. (The UK ‘opening up’ has been very measured in comparison for all our other cock ups).

But how on earth do you enforce social distancing indoors in pubs, or in nightclubs? These places are underpinned by alcohol which makes all inhibitions go out the window. Talk of making these places socially-distanced is grim, sucks the fun out and wouldn’t be enforceable anyway. And they’re basically the ideal environment for transmitting the virus: enclosed environments with poor air circulation and a high density of people.

And if someone tests positive, the place will have to close for a while for contact tracing and deep cleaning. Doing that repeatedly isn’t financially viable either.

I just can’t see nightclubs and many pubs operating again in a profitable fashion until this is over. Same goes for things like music venues.

Thoughts?

Even in restaurants there, places that have reopened with mandatory table spacing, compulsory face masks on whenever you leave your table, etc, are all fine initially, but the time it’s 11pm the whole thing is a shit show. Drunk people don’t care.

Yep, and consuming food and drinks with the mask on at all times is not really possible, is it?

@aurynne

Yep, and consuming food and drinks with the mask on at all times is not really possible, is it?

I don’t really see how we can get around that bit. Consuming drinks will surely be allowed on public transport, for instance. Some journeys are long and it doesn’t seem safe to be hot, thirsty and wearing a mask in that environment...

Agreed. I'm very keen to get the economy going again and open up we can but probably helped by the fact I don't frequent them I think we should be very cautious about opening indoor bars, nightclubs and sadly concerts and indoor sporting events to spectators.

Was it Seoul where they had it almost eradicated and a man managed to transmit to hundreds of people by going to bars snd nightclubs? It makes sense that it's going to transmit quickly somewhere packed where you get sweaty and the whole point of the place is to not socially distance.

Restaurants I'm not so sure about. People generally stay seated unless going to the loo, so provided its not a communal bench like setting or there's no buffet element (which is a shame as I love the salad buffet at Fazenda) I'd have thought they'd be medium rather than high risk.

Provided people have not got covid-19 then masks are not needed. For public transport especially long train journeys they will have to ensure everyone has a seat so no overcrowding, but then if rates are still low and nobody is obviously symptomatic then masks should be recommended but not mandatory, but there should be antibac handgel available at each end of the carriage.

One study showed in Japan heavy breathing was a factor so gyms, nightclubs etc were particular hot points. So that’s also a factor.

Restaurants not as bad and can more likely be managed with space between tables. Loos are needed though so that’s difficult, cleaning can be used more.

Provided people have not got covid-19 then masks are not needed.

Here to remind everyone that the reason we had lockdown was because we can't tell who has or doesn't have COVID without being tested. You can have it with no symptoms or in a presymptomatic stage.

Numbers are lower but people are still spreading it.

Back to the late 80s/early 90s and outdoor raves then. Much easier to arrange online now. Started already in fact.

I do agree with you that they are probably important causes of the spread but it's gone worldwide now, the rest is mitigation.

I was just saying this to someone yesterday. When I was at university one of the clubs I went to a few times was a labyrinth of smallish dark rooms that when full had walls and ceilings actually dripping with sweat. And obviously clubs are often full of people kissing... can’t see anything like that happening in a post-covid world until there’s an effective vaccine.

In saying that, pubs and brothels and stews have been around through plague, smallpox, rampant syphilis etc throughout history so maybe people will still think it worth the risk?

I don’t really see how we can get around that bit. Consuming drinks will surely be allowed on public transport, for instance. Some journeys are long and it doesn’t seem safe to be hot, thirsty and wearing a mask in that environment...

This goes for flights too. Ok it won't be hot but I'd need a drink at some point.

Ah outdoor raves. Good point. Takes me back. We’d have them in forests (Aus earth core ones).

Tulipstulips - I too remember a student nightclub with sweaty walls. Forget covid-19, there must have been all sorts of nasties lurking round to be caught.

Regarding masks - agreed that carriers can be asymptomatic, but my understanding is it would mainly be transmitted through coughing due to the spittle droplets. If the person wasn't hacking their way round the carriage and everyone was observing not touching faces and good hand cleaning, I think it couldn't travel far, but I don't think we know quite enough yet to confirm that so you're right to suggest caution.

i went to a sweaty wall club in early March. Several got ill but they weren't doing testing so we will never know if it was Covid-19. No way will I be going to an environment like that for the foreseeable.

Please no badly organised outdoor raves though! Our local country park has been absolutely trashed this weekend by people partying who left glass, cans, faeces, dirty clothing etc everywhere. And not far away there were more raves which had stabbings and a rape. It was horrendous.

I can't wait to get back to restaurants and theatres.

Yes it will take time, but I hate the notion that the whole idea will be gone for a long time. Humans are selectively forgetful about these types of things as we're programmed to be. Imagine if after the black death people had confined themselves to a solitary life, not advanced, not developed social and scientific practices...idk still feel that CV is a very first world problem in many respects. It's a horrendous thing to have happened but...these things do happen.

So yes, nightclubs and such are off the menu for now- but in a few months? Who knows.

Outdoor raves are a very bad idea. Just people acting like animals and leaving the mess for others to clean up.

I agree with you OP. But then I think anything where lots of people are packed tightly together indoors, eating and drinking, is a hot-bed of potential infection, so not just pubs, bars and restaurants, but planes, trains, theatres, concerts, sporting events, conferences, you name it. None of those things is really feasible until we have large-scale random testing, temperature checks, shit hot track and trace and/or a vaccine.

Personally, I'm not a huge worrier about this virus. It sounds very unpleasant, but most of us will feel ill for a week or two and then recover. In terms of mass contagion though, until the above is up and running we cannot return to normal life and that definitely includes sitting in the pub or a restaurant with a group of random strangers around us. Careless Republican states in the US are showing us all in glorious technicolour what happens when you just pretend the virus isn't there and carry on as normal.

Its hard in that I'm not convinced you can completely suppress the instinct to get together and...party, basically. As we're seeing at the moment with illegal raves. Likewise if pubs stay closed longterm people will have big house parties instead. The core issue with Covid is that the average liberalish non-authoritarian state can only enforce so much in the medium to longterm.

YANBU I don't think clubs and the like will reopen for a very long time.

We are mostly out of lockdown here in Berlin but clubs and cinemas won't be opening for the foreseeable, nor large events. It's a particular blow here because clubs are an important part of the city's lifestyle but what can you do?

Restaurants are open with more space between tables, servers wearing masks and closing at 10 pm. It's actually nice though to have a bit more space, restaurants got pretty bad about cramming people in on top of each other before.

@SomewhereEast

Its hard in that I'm not convinced you can completely suppress the instinct to get together and...party, basically. As we're seeing at the moment with illegal raves. Likewise if pubs stay closed longterm people will have big house parties instead. The core issue with Covid is that the average liberalish non-authoritarian state can only enforce so much in the medium to longterm.

You’re right, underground raves and large parties will be impossible to prevent. Especially for younger people who’ll feel like their chance at spontaneous fun and interaction has been torn away from them.

I think most young people are capable of understanding the concept of the greater good and that in a lifetime of opportunities, not being able to go to a concert or nightclub for a few months, maybe a year or so, is not the end of the world. We are doing young people a dis-service if we assume that they are never going to give a toss about older people and what covid can do to us. Young people have family they care about and don't want to be responsible for making ill or worse still. My 16 year old has said no to having friends over in the back garden because he recognises, in his words, the potential damage to me as someone who is vulnerable and his younger brother who is classed as vulnerable as well. He chats with this friends every day, can see them through the magic of the Internet and doesn't have the money to be doing anything other than sitting in the garden, even assuming cinemas, bowling alleys etc. were open. He doesn't currently feel he is missing out on anything.

At some level, this is going to change us permanently. It certainly feels to me that we will have lower transmission rates of colds and flu in the future as we all wash our hands more and are more conscious of the people around us and personal space. It maybe that we never crowd in as many people as we used to in some venues - so instead of 1000 crushed in, we have a lower capacity of, say, 750, and the tickets cost a couple of quid more. It may well save lives long term. It would be interesting to see some sciencists modelling potential outcomes if we reduced capacity in large venues across the board in terms of health.

Economic outcomes, of course, are a different matter. And I suppose therein lies the crux of the matter, however.

Pubs and bars are a problem because of the alcohol aspect. You can put measures in place but we all know what happens when people are drinking. I must admit I feel that places that only serve alcohol should probably stay shut for a while longer.
Big events like concerts etc I don’t think will return until next year.

Something like a cinema can fairly easily put social distancing in and keep people away from each other so I don’t see why they would need to stay closed for much longer. Indeed I hope they don’t as it’s one of my favourite pastimes. Theatres are different because of the performers and the fact that they need to sell most of their seats for every show to make money unlike cinemas.

There are definitely some industries that will struggle to come back from this until it’s over or there’s a vaccine

When I was at university one of the clubs I went to a few times was a labyrinth of smallish dark rooms that when full had walls and ceilings actually dripping with sweat.

@Tulipstulips Edinburgh?

To the original point, yes some things aren't viable. I think the things that are viable should reopen and the things that aren't should be supported. For example, the theatres in my city employ a lot of people but also they are the reason many restaurants in the area are in business. Letting theatres fail will have a massive knock on effect on jobs in that area.

Lostmyshit eventually young people need to get on with being young people. They'll want to meet new people and form romantic liaisons- either long or short term - they've been stopped from doing that for three months now. Alcohol helps with the inhibition process and we cannot expect folks to live like monks for much longer, nor should we blame them for wanting to live a normal life.

Hopefully this can start through open air pubs in the first instance rather than more illegal raves.

( And yes the nightclub with the sweaty walls I went to was in Edinburgh, cannot remember the name but it was on multiple floors and the road led down to the Grassmarket)