Banning Shakespeare, AIBU to think

[FluffBalled]

it's about time isn't it?

All that transphobia, prejudice and antisemitic language - it is amazing schools have allowed this stuff to continue.

For me, the difference with Shakespeare is that you are likely to have been introduced to his works in an educational setting where the historical context, the difficult themes etc are discussed in class. The language difference makes it very very clear it is of a different time. The same does not apply to the TV shows recently removed from streaming platforms.

As pp have said the decision to remove from in demand streaming is not an outright ban. Gone with the wind is supposed going to be back with context (like you would get studying Shakespeare at school). All copies of these TV shows have not been burnt... Copies exist - future scholars of media studies, cultural history etc etc will be able to study those programmes, the context of their creation and the context of their removal from some streaming sites.

On a more serious note Chase needs to be removed from Paw Patrol encouraging our dc to look up to the police is so wrong.

Jasper, I read almost every book going as a teenager howevr from the library without any introduction or explanation. That is freedom of thought and free speech and many of those works were from all kinds of eras and countries. It would be a travesty if we had to have Animal Farm type explanations of works before we allowed teenagers to read things freely surely.

Eg in the 1970s my sister and I read Enigh Blyton books out loud to each other changing the genders (bouys to girls) which was fun and exposed the sexism of the times when they were written . We didn't need anyone to explain that any more than anyone needs explanation that before married women could own property in England in the Victorian age women were almost property of their husbands. It does not damage us to read books of those eras. It educates us.

..Enid...

@Xenia, I also read lots of books without explanation out of interest (including Shakespeare abridgements and the whole plays before studying them). But the honest truth is that not everyone grows up in an environment that encourages them to think critically about past attitudes, changes to those attitudes, or historical context. There are plenty of people growing up in families were racism and sexism still exist. So, given that, English Literature classes do play an important role in allowing literature to be studied in context and in teaching critical reading skills.

However, as pp said this is all a bit strawman argument.

I teach in a university English department and, while no one has suggested banning Shakespeare, there is a great deal of discussion about how to address the inherent racism of the curriculum.

@Florabritannica, I imagine history departments are probably having similar conversations!

Also, however, freely anyone you allow people to read they are never going to have the chance to read everything even if they wanted to because not every book has survived. There are plenty of books out there for which there are just a couple of copies in university libraries. Similarly plenty of TV shows have been lost with no episodes surviving. And plenty of films and TV that you can't find on streaming services or they only turn up once a year or as uploads in YouTube.

It is weird that it is our past favourites might be becoming unavailable (especially given the debates going on) but we were never going to have all recent literature and TV/films available easily on demand forever. That's kind of how life goes.

Wow, some people are really afraid of black people achieving equality with while people. I thought the whole White Fragility thing was a bit confused, but no, it seems to be a real, scary thing to be equal to other members of our society

People are terrified. Their discomfort is literally written all over MNs, hence this thread amongst the many others.

Mock away, however a change is coming. And it’s about time.

Shakespeare was the progressive of the era. Othello was one of the first leading black characters in English literature. Merchant of Venice had a heroine that dressed as a man to get to her lover. Romeo and Juliette about division and identity. By the standards of the day he was a radical thinker. When you study him you study More than just words. It’s where art and literature stemmed from. God this is getting serious now. Like communism where the masses look to denounce art and culture.

Burn films, burn TV programs, tear down statues and now burn Shakespeare.

Its frightening what is happening.

awww the right is getting itself into a little tizzy isnt it.

By the standards of the day he was a radical thinker.

Or our Tudor and Stuart forebears were more sophisticated than we give them credit for ?

@user1471565182

awww the right is getting itself into a little tizzy isnt it.

If you honestly believe it’s just “the right” horrified by this there’s no hope for you. Can you not genuinely see how Orwellian this is becoming?

I did Macbeth for O level. In 1986, too

Fuckinghell you're lucky. I was made to suffer Henry IV part 2!

So when Lady M tells her boy to get on with it and murder King Duncan, this is Shakespeare advocating regicide?

Can some people not grasp the concept of narrative fiction?

The Major is a grotesque. He says grotesque things to show how grotesque he is. But we are also mindful of the fact that he also fought to defend his country and the world against Nazism. We learn from this that the world is not a two-dimensional babystory with wholly good heroes and entirely bad villains. It is complicated, this life.

Wishing to defend this is not fragility. It is being a grown-up.

We could also have a conversation about Mark Twain. His brilliant depiction of racist attitudes may be too painful for some to hear, but it is vital that we know them and study them to understand the world he was a part of.

That is not fragility either.

Fragility is thinking you have a right not to be exposed to anything, of whatever provenance, that makes you feel uncomforatable.

DS read Tom Sawyer as part of his curriculum. He was horrified by the racism, the overt use of the N word, the maltreatment of black people. It led to a long and interesting discussion about how racism hasn't gone away and while it may be better (in some countries) there is so much more to be done.

@user1471565182

awww the right is getting itself into a little tizzy isnt it.

You obviously don’t have any space in your life for the arts or literature. If you did you’d probably have developed the intellectual capacity over time that would make you ashamed to make such an infantile statement.

You’re right @Stressing. My Orwell reference probably went completely over their head.

You obviously don’t have any space in your life for the arts or literature. If you did you’d probably have developed the intellectual capacity over time that would make you ashamed to make such an infantile statement

In what way is our artistic and literary heritage or culture being eroded here? Genuine question.

Jasper, by all means let schools give context but I would like that to be in an environment with 50% of teachers and university lecturers supporting the Tory party and 50% labour. Sadly we don't have that in the UK yet which is a huge pity and means children are presented often with a view which is very biased although I hope teachers do work hard to show both points of views to various issues.

iki, yes that is how it has always been. People reading earlier books from the 1700s when they were in the 1800s would think the same. It is always like that as people and societies change and that is why it is important we allow people to read older books and we tend these days not to tear down things with which we do not agree eg more people do not believe in God than do now in the UK but we don't go round tearing down all the different religions' houses of worship even though almost every week many of them are preaching sexism, in some cases making women and men sit apart and all sorts.....

The virgin Mary was about 12 when she conceived Jesus and even the little house in the Prairie series written in about 1920s about the 1860s there is a description of one girl who married at age 13 which the main character and her cousin felt was too young to have all that responsibility of children and I remember finding that so interesting - that they didn't think having sex and being married at that age out there on the Prairies in that time was morally wrong but that they still could see the downside of it. I would not have liked those books to be censored for our time or to change the age of 13 as it would alter the historical record.

I take your point, Xenia, about teacher politics being heavily left-leaning, but surely there is much greater diversity of opinion than Tory/Labour! I disagree with both parties on a number of issues, and agree with both on others.

Context is important and needs to be established and discussed (which in fact it is in any decent English lesson) but the OP is definitely being unreasonable (and obviously a provocateur/devil's advocate). And, as an opera fan, I'd have very little left to listen to if we took the suggested approach...

Reducing education to party political ideology is so reductive it’s not worthy of argument.

Reducing education to party political ideology is so reductive it’s not worthy of argument.

But it's cheap ! And also won't affect the people that matter who buy the next generation of the ruling class a top-notch education at Eton etc.