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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Fawlty Towers “Don’t mention the war” removed.

443 replies

boredtotears11 · 12/06/2020 08:55

Aibu to say I think that is a ridiculous decision by the BBC.Theyve removed it from its streaming service because of its “racist slurs”. It was a classic piece of comedy. I mean if they start picking apart old classic comedy how far are they going to go. Dads Army next?

OP posts:
ravenmum · 12/06/2020 14:22

The Christmas lights, by contrast, are not just old news, but also very unseasonal! Can't you warm up that old argument again when it's actually cold?

IagoWithABlackberry · 12/06/2020 14:24

@Hushabyelullabye

We were watching it recently and there is an episode where The Major uses the N word, DH and I gasped in shock at it, I can't believe that society used to tolerate that kind of thing (not to mention many other things done and said in the name of humour).

It wasn't until seeing it now that I realised how rife discrimination is in the name of comedy Shock

Really? You can't believe that society used to tolerate racist humour? We tolerated slavery for a few hundred years and colonialism for a good deal longer. And, even as that collapsed, racism was rife in this country and many others besides.

If we hadn't done those things, then today's society would almost certainly be a more equal one but we did do them. We are not just the product of the nicer, more progressive parts of history, we are the culmination of all of it. Of atrocities we committed against each other, of inequalities which were upheld to retain a status quo, of the ideologies of people who believed that they were superior to everyone else.
So even if you are very young and you have grown up in an era of comparative equality (note the comparative, before anyone points out the many, many things which are still wrong), recognise the past for what it was. Concentrate on ensuring that we do not repeat the atrocities of the past instead of letting everyone know how shocked and horrified you are that they were committed at all.

FuckThisWind · 12/06/2020 14:25

Just out of interest, I've just gone onto Netflix now, selected the German episode and started to watch it. The scene is pretty soon - about 5 mins in. The N and W words are still in the scene. Seems strange that some people have said the whole series had disappeared from their Netflix packages. For what it's worth, the Major tally does come across as a doddery old bigoted forgetful and irritating fool. However, the canned laughter over it does make it sound like the audience are laughing along. Not laughing at him. Very cringe. Like a lot of stuff of it's time it was sexist and racist. Some of it was very clever though.

Saucery · 12/06/2020 14:25

@TomPinch

I don’t know. There’s a scene where Jesus can be heard preaching the Beatitudes in the distance which is quite moving.

I said it was a pisstake of Christianity. But - as for Jesus himself, next to nothing is known of him other than in Christian sources so it's disingenuous for Michael Palin to say it wasn't about him. Of course it was really.

I also don't think the Pythons made any distinction between faith on the one hand and organised religion on the other. It's a tenuous distinction at any time. And so it is, in fact, an attack on anyone whose faith exists within the organised religion known as Christianity. Which, at the time would have (nominally) included most British people. I don't think the Pythons set out to offend the likes of Desmond Tutu, ie, genuinely saintly people, but intending to offend isn't the same as intending to lampoon.

The irony is that, now, Christians are probably the ones who enjoy the film most because they get the references. It's a such a funny film that it isn't offensive unlike, say, After Life or other stuff by Ricky Gervais.

Also backstage, according to Palin, he had met Raymond Johnston from the Nationwide Festival of Light, a prominent Christian group who had been campaigning to have Life of Brian banned.[8] Instead of aggression, though, Johnston was most complimentary to Palin, saying he had been embarrassed by the performance of the Bishop. Palin says "[Johnston] had found it quite clear that Brian and Jesus were separate people", and that the film was making some "very valid points about organised religions".

Jesus appears in the same scene as Brian (Sermon On The Mount) so nonsense to say they are the same person. As you’ve taken the same line as the bombastic Bishop Of Southwark I doubt there’s much point repeating that, however.

RoLaren · 12/06/2020 14:28

I used to listen to cassettes of Fawlty Towers. Even aged 8 I understood the character of the Major. He was an unreconstructed, doddery, elderly man still using the language of his youth. I went to school, played with my diverse friends and never used those words because I understood. Why can't adults do that now?

Saucery · 12/06/2020 14:29

For what it's worth, the Major tally does come across as a doddery old bigoted forgetful and irritating fool.

I’ve always thought he very clearly had some form of dementia. So at least Basil is an Equal Opportunities Bully.

IntermittentParps · 12/06/2020 14:33

It happened. I was there.

I thought it was your friend the director of comms who was there?

ravenmum · 12/06/2020 14:34

Germans have a word for this that's often used in the context of comedies about Nazism - "verharmlosen", meaning to make it seem as if something is harmless. In the past, the idea of making a comedy about Nazism was widely seen as an example of Verharmlosung - people were against the idea of making Hitler look like a fool, rather than like a murderer. Today, there is less protest, now that time has passed.
But that is the issue here - not everyone agrees that it is OK to make a racist look like a harmless fool. I would say that even adults could be prone to seeing racism as more harmless when it is depicted in that way.

Pumperthepumper · 12/06/2020 14:42

@andyoldlabour

"It'll be Father Ted next. 'I hear you're a racist now, Father'"

Careful now, down with that kind of thing!

The entire point of that episode was that he was being racist - and he was caught by the people he was impersonating. The whole joke is that he is in the wrong but tries to get out of it because he’s so mortified at being thought of as a racist.

I can’t understand why people don’t see the difference between this and a white man saying the N-word, or blackfacing - yet are so keen to defend racism under the headline ‘British Humour’.

1forsorrow · 12/06/2020 14:44

Birmingham City Council banned Christmas a few years ago. They wanted it called Winterval. They didn't ban Christmas, I think you are mixing up Birmingham City Council with Oliver Cromwell. As a Christian that never offended me. The lights went up in time for Diwali, then there was Hanuka and I think Eid was close to Christmas that year. There is nothing inherently Christin about coloured lights. The council tax payers in Birmingham aren't all Christian, the lights are there for all.

1forsorrow · 12/06/2020 14:49

It’s actually true. I had a friend who was director of comms for Birmingham City Council at the time and we had more than one lengthy discussion about it, punctuated by her tearing her hair out. It looks as if history has been revised. Quelle surprise. No it isn't rewriting history, there were plenty of people misunderstanding it at the time, despite efforts to explain. I worked for the local authority at the time.

AllesAusLiebe · 12/06/2020 14:51

@ravenmum I’ve never heard this expression being used in relation to comedy but with attempts by the right wing desensitise the public to historical atrocities like the Holocaust.

Somewhat ironically, I’ve also heard it used to criticise those on the left for yelling ‘nazi’ at everyone who doesn’t agree with their point of view. It’s a fine line we’re treading with a lot of this reviewing that’s going on.

Crystaltree · 12/06/2020 14:52

Basil Fawlty also hits his employee Manuel and abuses him because he is stupid and can't help it 'because he is from Barcelona'. When it was shown in Spain it was dubbed so that Manuel was Italian.

ravenmum · 12/06/2020 15:01

@AllesAusLiebe That, too! But I've seen it used regularly in the context of humour over the years. For a recent example, this article argues that JojoRabbit is not Verharmlosung, as it is not just funny but also shocking.

managedmis · 12/06/2020 15:05

It's not even mocking the Germans, the English are mocking themselves.

World gone mad, goddammit

managedmis · 12/06/2020 15:06

I think you are mixing up Birmingham City Council with Oliver Cromwell.

^

Grin sorry, found that funny

ravenmum · 12/06/2020 15:07

No, it is not mocking the Germans; it is using racist language, see entire thread Grin

maddy68 · 12/06/2020 15:07

It's NOTHING to do with the Germans; it's the "Major" and his use of "nr" and "w".

Ths episode has already been edited for the BBC and Cleese was happy with it then.

AllesAusLiebe · 12/06/2020 15:20

@ravenmum ah thanks! Makes complete sense in this context.

1forsorrow · 12/06/2020 15:34

@managedmis well it is funny isn't it, it was the Puritans who banned Christmas, definitely not Birmingham City Council. Mind you if the director of Comms at the council didn't understand it then it's hardly surprising that other people got confused.

If you think about it it was a great value for money exercise, do we have Christmas lights or do we have Diwali,Hanuka, Christmas,Eid,Soltice lights for the same money?

Charlottejbt · 12/06/2020 15:42

Btw, are there any other Goon Show fans here? That's aged pretty well, in my opinion.

"There's a chink in my armour."

"These Chinese get everywhere!"

I did think that was funny at the time I first heard it (late 80s probably). The Major wasn't that funny but he also wasn't shocking, just a recognisable type of old person. We used to chant Eeny meeny miny mo at the time of that FT episode being recorded, so the N word had no particular shock value in itself, although it was definitely an impolite (if not unusual) thing to call someone.

Now the "chink" joke and the Major's epithets are cringey, because those terms of abuse are far less used and have become shocking. Actually I remember the original Fowler's Modern English, circa 1920s, having an entry for the N word which noted that it was impolite to use it for non-Africans, and thus presumably acceptable to use it for people of black Afro-Caribbean descent! So the Major's earnest explanation of the "correct" use of racial terms is in fact historically accurate even if we wouldn't endorse it now, or even in the 1970s.

I hope FT comes back, with the bad words bleeped out and/or a content warning. Interesting that nobody seems too bothered about terms like wop and dago which were already dated and a bit embarrassing when I saw FT in the 80s. Interesting that the vocabulary of anti-European xenophobia wasn't revived after the referendum, even though the underlying attitudes are now worse than ever.

MitziK · 12/06/2020 16:57

@TomPinch

Btw, are there any other Goon Show fans here? That's aged pretty well, in my opinion.
Time for intermission/musical excerpt:

Here comes Ray Ellington!

Smile! I can't see you!

Some of it really, really hasn't. But it's possible to edit the majority pretty easily and lose the episodes where it hasn't.

SpocksEyebrows · 12/06/2020 17:00

Then why not just bleep out the word like thru do with other offensive language?

ravenmum · 12/06/2020 17:10

Then why not just bleep out the word like thru do with other offensive language?
That's what they are doing. They are removing the offensive version.