The English started the slave trade

[Annamaria14]

I just saw a black American woman post online,

"The English started the slave trade. They caused all our problems, they hurt generations of people. I will never set foot in that country".

What do you think? I felt a bit guilty, because the English did cause a lot of problems around the world. Have we learned from our past. How can we do better in the future

So true. He wouldn't have got a statue if he'd salted his money away. It is indeed ironic that he's been vilified because he "did the right thing" and spent some of the profits on good causes to benefit the people of the city.

It's incredibly easy to be generous with stolen money.

Yes I thought that he got a statue, because he put so much money back into the coty.

Though the argument is , if he accumulated wealth through slavery he should not be honoured.

It is possibly okay to have honoured him at the time, because slavery was legal then. But certainly not now, as times have moved on and slavery is completely illegal and seen for the horror that it was

The other thing regarding Colson is that you are almost legitimizing bad behaviour because you ca then 'make good' once you have made your money.

So then the bad aspect never goes away as it is seen as a secure means to make money that can then be legitimized by giving money to honourable causes when in fact that donation was probably a tax efficient way of retaining money/paying less tax.

It 's clever philanthropy but it is usually done in amounts that are insignificant to the base amount obtained through illegal or unethical means so the mechanisms in play just get stronger and become more consolidated as a means to get money.

It's incredibly easy to be generous with stolen money.
According to the wiki entry ( don't know who wrote it or what their agenda is) nobody knows how much money he made through slavery. His family were already rich.

His statue was put up nearly 175 years after his death and about two generations since Abolition. It was probably some sentimental Victorian thing to celebrate philanthropy. I know that the statue was controversial even back then.

*@HotCoffeeAndPorridge
I'm also fed up with not ever being allowed to feel proud to be British

I feel for you, I am German, living in the UK... I have experienced a lot of racism, so have my children. (I know I am white therefore I can't possibly know- the irony!!).
But I have successfully pointed out that not all Germans are bad, not everyone was involved in the holocaust and that many advances in Science and technology are actually due to some fabulous German people! Just because we have a black spot in our history doesn't mean we have to be forever ashamed. We have every right to be proud of our heritage.

The same applies for British/ English people. Yes, they were involved in slavery, but they also recognised the injustice and brutality of it. Therefore it was abolished.
You can give yourself credit for that as well as many other things that have been achieved by some great British brains.
There is always bad mixed up with good stuff, that's just human nature. If people like to only look at the bad, let them get on with it... it makes for great drama, just don't engage!

@sinuhe this is why we should get to a stage of seeing that no one is from just one country. The idea that we are from one country is incorrect.

I was born in England, I grew up in Ireland. I have English and Irish parents, I have Polish hrandparents. I have lived for years in Spain.

Just because we were on one rock when we were born does not mean that country owns is for the rest of our lives.

The idea of nationality was a way to keep us seperate and to keep fighting each other. It was an illusion. We are all from Planet Earth

The other thing regarding Colson is that you are almost legitimizing bad behaviour because you can then 'make good' once you have made your money.

Isn't that kind of the basis for the Catholic church, if not Christianity in general ? Repentance wipes the slate clean and all that ?

Let's not forget the Bible condones slavery too, so that needs to dealt with somehow too.

@DGRossetti

The other thing regarding Colson is that you are almost legitimizing bad behaviour because you can then 'make good' once you have made your money.

Isn't that kind of the basis for the Catholic church, if not Christianity in general ? Repentance wipes the slate clean and all that ?

No - the starting position is don't do the wrong thing in the first place. But yes, we are human and make mistakes therefore we must forgive, etc but when humans are monetised for profit - there is no moral ambiguity there - it's wrong. It has to be - it cannot sit alongside beliefs that all humans are equal in the eyes of God.

@Annamaria14

We are all from Planet Earth

Yes.

it cannot sit alongside beliefs that all humans are equal in the eyes of God.

But they aren't. The Bible is quite open about slaves and how to treat them ...

When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.
Exodus 21:20-21

Leviticus 25:44–46

44 “ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

and so on.

@DGRossetti

I cannot reconcile the idea of enslaving people with a kind and humane God. That I look for the good in people and life and try to focus on that makes me a poor critic of religion as I don't adhere to these passages (Old Testament) and have a good answer for you. I cannot accept that it is, or was ever right. That the Bible or books within it codify the practise still doesn't make it right to me. It cannot coexist with a humane God.

Perhaps this god you speak of is not humane, and now needs to go into the river. Muhammad too, a slave owner.

@Moonmelodies

Perhaps. That it is disproportionately held up at the expense of other human lives, I cannot reconcile myself. I have no answers there, only questions.

I cannot reconcile the idea of enslaving people with a kind and humane God.

Well lots and lot of people could and did and do.

Lets take God out of the equation (as indeed God themself has done) and see if we can be nice to one another without the need to be told to ? Radical views I know. I'll probably get locked up, after all people were too.

Thread drift onto religion now, but it's worth highlighting that as many slavers were devout Christians as abolitionists, so maybe lay off the praise for the lord on that one ?

And that's before we remember that a lot of slavery was "justified" by converting the slaves to Christianity.

@DGRossetti

Thread drift onto religion now, but it's worth highlighting that as many slavers were devout Christians as abolitionists, so maybe lay off the praise for the lord on that one ?

You'd have no argument with me on that.

The bible has caused centuries of untold suffering. It’s almost as if it was written by sexist, homophobic, angry, judgemental men.....oh wait.

So many slave owners will have used the bible for justification of owning slaves, beating slaves, killing slaves. The book has no place in modern society.

Perhaps the next anti-racist protest could include a mass burning of Bibles and Qurans.

But is your point that we have slavery in society because it is in the Bible?

I think history shows us that slavery is a feature of human behaviour - that religions push the message that we are all equal only works if people hear it. Likewise, with the humanist approach - it takes a degree of enlightenment to recognise that we can change our society by how we behave to each other, whether that is because God demands it of us or whether we just feel it is the right/a good thing to do.

But I think you mean it was condoned by religious peoples because it was referenced in the Bible? It's presence there legitimized it. And because crucially there wasn't a verse that said 'It was wrong'.

It's wrong. No ifs, no buts.

There's also an unpleasant truth that slavery has examples in nature ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave-making_ant

Now whether that has any part in this debate rests upon whether you believe that ants have consciences; taking it as read than humans do. But even then, not everyones conscience appears to be the same. Just because your conscience says slavery is wrong, is it any more "right" than someone whose conscience is quite relaxed about slavery ?

We're heading dangerously close to asking if there are any moral absolutes ... and that might break the internet ....

But is your point that we have slavery in society because it is in the Bible?

No. But having the Bible didn't stop slavery.

Slavery (much like God ...) predates the Bible.

It's incredibly easy to be generous with stolen money

Yes the money was tainted, but even Carnegie wasn't controversy-free (though he had nothing to do with slavery, obviously). There were many philanthropists who invested in cities all over the Western World - and if we looked too deeply into their activities (or just a little bit) we wouldn't like it.

But better you gain a conscience and use your ill gotten gains for good, than not use the money for anything good at all.

As for religion, there are no boundaries on hypocrisy; most wars have been fought in the name of religion, women are subjugated by nearly every religion.

It's incredibly easy to be generous with stolen money

Of course, there's a corollary that it's easy to protest when it costs nothing - like from behind a keyboard . And I happily include myself in that sentiment.

@DGRossetti

We're heading dangerously close to asking if there are any moral absolutes ... and that might break the internet ....

Ha! A reset.

DGRossetti

Excellent post with the quotes from the bible.
As we know, the King James bible was completed in 1611about the same time as the Atlantic slave trade was really getting underway. Is it any coincidence that the bible should be condoning slavery?
Was this possibly an effort by the monarchies of the European countries and the Christian churches to have a built in absolution for the horrific crimes which these countries would go on to commit?