The English started the slave trade

[Annamaria14]

I just saw a black American woman post online,

"The English started the slave trade. They caused all our problems, they hurt generations of people. I will never set foot in that country".

What do you think? I felt a bit guilty, because the English did cause a lot of problems around the world. Have we learned from our past. How can we do better in the future

(The problem of countries that have done terrible things in the past not teaching their children about it is international. My best friend was born and raised in Japan and didn't know that Korea wasn't happy to be colonized or that the Rape of Nanking happened until she moved to the US. In that sense Germany is very much the exception rather than the rule.)

7ofNine
"But Britons still want their smartphones and laptops, to fly on holiday, fashion from Bangladesh, fried chicken and burgers, palm oil-ridden chocolate and biscuits and cakes etc. all of which cause huge suffering to someone or something somewhere else."

In all fairness, you could substiute "Britons" with any other country's inhabitants, so Britons are not doing anything which Japanese, Chinese, Indians, Iranians, Europeans, South Americans are also doing.

But still some people wish to place the blame solely on the British.

The Confederacy needed to trade with Britain to survive and received much assistance with blockade running to get its cotton to Lancashire. This was not an official policy but the UK govt recognised the Confederacy and was able to do so because Lincoln called them belligerents and not insurrectionists.

Well worth a read ...

www.theguardian.com/theguardian/from-the-archive-blog/2013/feb/04/lincoln-oscars-manchester-cotton-abraham

British North America was an officially sanctioned venture, but as events proved all too well, it was beyond the writ of the parliament in Westminster to control it, de facto and ultimately de jure.

What on earth are you talking about.

This is the most concise explanation I can find:

"By 1776, Britain had evolved three different forms of government for its North American colonies: provincial, proprietary, and charter. These governments were all subordinate to the king in London and had no explicit relationship with the British Parliament. Beginning late in the 17th century, the administration of all British colonies was overseen by the Board of Trade, a committee of the Privy Council. Each colony had a paid colonial agent in London to represent its interests."

The importance of the colonies to Britain might be deduced from the years of very expensive warfare it fought to keep them.

What do you even learn about the empire in the UK?

We certainly helped to establish it in the America's but I seem to remember that Brits were enslaved by the Romans before Britain was even a country....

When I studied Roman civilisation, it was noted that the main effect slavery had was to consign science and natural enquiry to "also-ran" status. You don't need to come up with a better way of doing anything if you have an endless supply of slaves.

Also, when human lives are property, you can use them to settle debts. Which is how the native Britons paid tribute to Rome in the century between Caesar and Claudius. Go on a raiding expedition to your nearest enemy tribe. Snaffle a few string young people - give them to the next passing Roman tribune in return for being left alone.

Mockers, by that logic you'd have to say India was never colonized either, because they were eventually successful in kicking us out.

The fact that the colonies where the only people who counted as people were white were treated differently from the other colonies doesn't mean that they weren't colonies. It doesn't take a genius to work out why they were treated differently.

Given what is going on in the US - which has been going on for hundreds of years - black people being oppressed, assaulted and murdered, why would a black American woman decide to rage against the English, when she should be raging at her own political situation and the police and judiciary?
Is it in the American psyche to blame someone else for their homegrown problems, rather than use a bit of self reflection?

Is it in the American psyche to blame someone else for their homegrown problems, rather than use a bit of self reflection?

You could have been just as right if you'd said "British" instead of American there ....

There is a growing appreciation for the fact that racism is global and systemic, and its roots are very deep.

If you have never before encountered people from other parts of the world expressing anger or resentment for the British contribution to this, then you have not been listening.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn sorry- that was my poor writing, I did not intend to imply Koreans committed atrocities against the Japanese. Badly worded, but I meant the Chinese armies also committed barbaric actions against Koreans, and also against Japanese forces and civilians in Manchuria. Though one could argue the Japanese should not have been there, obviously.

@andyoldlabour I used "Britons" as I am British, writing on a British website whose users are mostly, though not all, British.
It's not about nationalistic self flagellation. We cannot end inequalities and exploitation while we still demand all those things. We as in mankind, not we as in Britons, or even MNers.

'What do you learn about empire in the uk'

I learned nothing. We did stone age, ancient egyptians, romans, civil war (uk one) King Henry Eighth, Great Fire of London, Russian Revolution, French Revolution, vietnam war, the great depression and the origins of ww2.

We did 'do' Slavery but the lessons i had focused on the physical experience on the slave ships with no wider context. It made me vomit.

I had to piece it together as an adult. It makes me angry. You need to remember i live in a country where 'the troubles' were going on my whole childhood and not once was it mentioned in school. I had to learn about ireland as an adult again.

RE what we learned, I believe we skipped directly from the Tudors to the Russian Revolution at my school, and from there to WW1 and WW2. American history started with the great depression and the New Deal.

That's really depressing, Grasspigeons and Prodigal

To be clear: American history is also taught very badly, very often. But this varies a lot by location. In New York we learned a great deal about the most terrible parts of American history, in other parts of the US I don't think you do.

We also learned a lot about the Troubles actually (New York being very Irish Catholic) and I was surprised when I moved to the UK how so many Brits seemed completely unaware of anything to do with Ireland.

@grasspigeons I guess it depends where you went to school. My secondary in Yorkshire spent an entire 6 months on US-British history. Beginning with the settlement of Virginia, through the frontier, the slaughter of NA, the slave trade, civil war and independence.

Oh and we also did the civil rights movement in Yr 8 and yr 11 + Watergate + arms race

My DH wasn't born in the US but finished high school on the West Coast, and he learned a lot about Cesar Chavez and Dolores Huerta and attempts to unionize farmworkers, and remembers devoting most of a semester to Rigoberta Menchu, but very little about slavery or the Civil War. Possibly they do it at a younger age and he missed it but I'm not sure.

Taking my bestie's experience into account I feel like the pattern is that most countries try to gloss over the most shameful parts of their histories, unless you happen to be in a particularly progressive place or school. I'd be very interested to see what kids in say Alabama or South Carolina are learning in their history classes, and what British kids are learning now since it's been quite some time since I went through the British school system.

We definitely didn't learn anything about the Troubles or the history behind them at school, which I remember clearly because I had an Irish classmate who was pissed off about it.

But will agree with others that The Troubles were all but skipped

I wonder if it makes people happier that the person who arguably first came up with the concept of an English Empire (John Dee) was tricked into letting his best mate fuck his wife regularly.

There's no substitute for teaching yourself history, I'm afraid. That said, it's never been cheaper.

"We also learned a lot about the Troubles actually (New York being very Irish Catholic) and I was surprised when I moved to the UK how so many Brits seemed completely unaware of anything to do with Ireland."

I find that very surprising, because in the seventies it was wall to wall news coverage every single night. I was brought up in a Catholic household (Irish mum) in England, and as a teenager at that time we knew all about the troubles.
I do not know one person in England (maybe teenagers) who is unaware of the troubles, particularly as there were terrorist attacks carried out in England.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_London#1980%E2%80%931989

We definitely didn't learn anything about the Troubles or the history behind them at school, which I remember clearly because I had an Irish classmate who was pissed off about it.

First year at Uni I shared a house with a (nominally Catholic) guy from Ballycastle. I learned more about the troubles in a week than I'd learned in my life till that point. (That was an interesting experience, because he was very loosely Unionist, but his elder brother was far more radical republican. And their arguments made the Gallaghers look like the Andrews sisters ....)

I do not know one person in England (maybe teenagers) who is unaware of the troubles, particularly as there were terrorist attacks carried out in England.

I know lots of people in England who still haven't a fucking clue about the Troubles. Despite the bombs. Which speaks volumes about the English attitude to something ....

Why are these people so angry with us ? Is it something we should try and investigate ?

Gracious no. That would never do. Just watch TV and hear people tell you what to think, and you'll (probably) be OK.

OK wonderful government that always has the best interests of the little people at heart. We'll do that. And trust you wouldn't be lying to us or trying to manipulate the situation for your own advantage now.

(jolly laugh) That's right, we'd never do that. Ever. We have far too much respect for all our subjects to ever do that.