The English started the slave trade

[Annamaria14]

I just saw a black American woman post online,

"The English started the slave trade. They caused all our problems, they hurt generations of people. I will never set foot in that country".

What do you think? I felt a bit guilty, because the English did cause a lot of problems around the world. Have we learned from our past. How can we do better in the future

So many threads at the moment requiring white people to self flagellate.

And so many people willing to do so without knowing all the facts or willing to have definitions reworked for them to be able to so.

The Romans were guilty of some fairly horrific things too but do we blame the Italians for it?

By the way, if anyone does want to learn more about African history and politics, this is a great online resource:

exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/

This is the module specifically on the slave trade:

exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/the-atlantic-slave-trade-engage/

Good lord, it’s a long time since I’ve seen this much whataboutery... just because the Portuguese, Spanish, Arabs many others were involved in trading slaves, does not mean the British involvement is any less grave.

I’m honestly breathtaken by some of the comments here. So so ignorant. I was really interested to look at the database cited earlier, and was relieved to see no mention of any of the family namesI’m aware of in our family tree, but as a country, we are still culpable, and we should be able to own it.

What difference does it make to you to say sorry/be sensitive about it?

We should also remember the UK with the US behind them stood against racism against jews and gypsies and many others and the atrocities in Germany in WWII - we have much to be proud of as two of the best nations on earth for human rights.

(Points up)

This is why I asked what happened to South America in some people's analysis. Both racism and its close cousin colorism are alive and well in the former Spanish and Portuguese colonies, and that's before you even get to talking about Haiti so let's not let France off the hook either. Multiple European countries were involved in creating the situation we have now.

Please, who is this "We"?

Slavery was private enterprise. It was illegal in Britain under the Habeus Corpus Act of 1679. Any slave landed on British home soil was liable to being freed by any court that got to hear of it. The loophole was that this law did not apply on the high seas or in the colonies.

Regards those who profited from slavery, they profited more than anything from abolition and the generous compensation they secured paid for by the taxes levied on the non-slave owing population.

To me, whether we need to be apologetic or not about the slave trade/colonialism etc etc depends on how much we are still profiting from it without trying to redress the balance, and how much of our present thinking and acting is still influenced by that past.

This, exactly. Well said!

@Chiochan

No, no they didn't belong to the Ottomans at that time or any other. I believe the UN does not recognise conquest as a legitimate means of establishing property rights.

The UN didn't exist in the early 19th century.

Greece didn't exist.

The original British (Brythonic) people were Welsh. The Angles drove them out and called the land Angle-land. If you're in England, please make arrangements to vacate your house and give it to a family from Cardiff.

Please explain who owns them. The Ottomans who sold them? The Ottoman Empire doesn't exist any more. You want to give them to Turkey? Or do you mean Lord Elgin's descendants - he sold them for less than he paid. You think they're entitled to a cut? After the British Government bought them it gets more complicated. What do you think should happen to government property? Are you proposing they should be removed from the British Museum and put into Number 10 or Chequers? Or some civil servant's office? They belong to the British Museum to be put on public display so technically they belong to the British public. With you being descended from landed gentry, maybe you think the plebs don't deserve them?

The Greeks own them - they’ve left a lovely space in the Athens museum with the remaining marbles Elgin didn’t steal so I’m sure they’ll slot straight back in once they’ve assessed the damage the British have done to them. Very bold of you to claim to be the only person who has seen the original firman. You and Elgin, obviously.

I’m deliberately ignoring your landed gentry comments because it’s 1) nonsense 2) irrelevant and 3) dull; you’ve used the same phrase in every post.

Do the Greeks also own Alexandria, Izmir and Syracuse?

If not, why not?

How about the Hagia Sophia, who owns that?

There's a guy who I grew up with who keeps the kinky hair he inherited from his Columbian mother super short because he inherited his mestizo Mexican father's lighter skin tone and therefore his chances of being shot by the police are to a certain extent determined by whether or not people can use his hair texture to determine the fact that he has African ancestry. This is not a "Britain doesn't bear any responsibility for what's happening now" argument - we do. What I'm saying is that the transatlantic slave trade involved several European nations and we shouldn't be erasing those victims whose ancestors ended up south of the US border. America is a deeply racist society and a lot of that can be traced to the legacy of the slave trade, but racism against black people does not end where the US borders do.

And all those Ptolemaic artifacts in the Cairo Museum?

Whose are those?

"We don't need to feel shame or guilt about it, we didnt personally do it. But we do need to understand why it happened, and make sure the opinions, attitudes and institutions that enabled it to continue are not tolerated. We can't help the fact it happened, it is in the past."

This, acknowledge the horrors of the past and it and ensure it can never happen again and stamp out any racist attitudes that stemmed from it and are still present but we shouldn't feel anymore personal guilt for it than people born in Germany now should for the Holocaust. However we should acknowledge our past mistakes as a country more like Germany has, but that starts with education, not bashing people who acknowledge the horrors but literally can't do anything about it because we don't have time travel. And I don't feel any 'pride' for Britain have been on the winning side of either of the world wars either, I'm bloody glad we did because in both cases our side of the war was about defending from invasions by the other side who were occupying other countries and attempting to do the same to Britain, but relief is quite different to pride.

If we hold everyone on the planet responsible for the actions of their ancestors, then we are all scum.

This, not a single country failed to participate and profit from the slave trade in some way, from the African tribes who kidnapped and sold each other to the Far East and west who transported slaves across the world. And if it's not the crime of slavery its crimes against women, or gay people, or disabled people, or against some other ethnic minority. Every single country has a barbaric history, every single modern civilisation is born out of some war. Every single country still has some racism, whether it be against black people, or oriental Asians, or Indian Asians ect, all these need to be dealt with.

@xenia that is so ignorant it is scary. We are one of the best nations for human rights? Are you being taught that in schools.

Britain invaded 90% of the world's countries and caused atrocities in many of those countries, raping and murdering many. Why do you think so many countries fought for their independence from us

It says that there are only 22 countries in tje world, that Britain did not invade

@Pumperthepumper

Please explain who owns them. The Ottomans who sold them? The Ottoman Empire doesn't exist any more. You want to give them to Turkey? Or do you mean Lord Elgin's descendants - he sold them for less than he paid. You think they're entitled to a cut? After the British Government bought them it gets more complicated. What do you think should happen to government property? Are you proposing they should be removed from the British Museum and put into Number 10 or Chequers? Or some civil servant's office? They belong to the British Museum to be put on public display so technically they belong to the British public. With you being descended from landed gentry, maybe you think the plebs don't deserve them?

The Greeks own them - they’ve left a lovely space in the Athens museum with the remaining marbles Elgin didn’t steal so I’m sure they’ll slot straight back in once they’ve assessed the damage the British have done to them. Very bold of you to claim to be the only person who has seen the original firman. You and Elgin, obviously.

I’m deliberately ignoring your landed gentry comments because it’s 1) nonsense 2) irrelevant and 3) dull; you’ve used the same phrase in every post.

The state of Greece didn't exist at the time. 'The Greeks' did not exist as a people. The Athenians build the Parthenon. On the one hand you are arguing that the Ottomans had no right to sell because they had conquered Athens. But Athens has been subsumed into modern day Greece. You can't argue that one set of conquerors have no rights but another should assume ownership. I know this will be too confusing for you.

I haven't claimed to have seen the original firman. You made this up.

What damage have 'the British' done, please? I'm British and I caused no damage when I went to see them in the British Museum. What nationality are you, please?

If you aren't landed gentry, what basis do you have for saying 'we'?

So did plenty of other countries anna not just the British, people were brutal, life was cheap.

The Taliban, Stalin, Khengis Khan, Nazis, etc etc

When calling out racism is called “bullying”.
Sounds about white.

@DGRossetti

If we think about the transatlantic slave trade, then we would need to include the Dutch and the Spanish as well as the Portuguese and the British.

However the elephant in the room is that regardless of that, they all ended up speaking English to this day ... which makes it's own statement ...

Not in Brazil they didn"t

The state of Greece didn't exist at the time. 'The Greeks' did not exist as a people. The Athenians build the Parthenon. On the one hand you are arguing that the Ottomans had no right to sell because they had conquered Athens. But Athens has been subsumed into modern day Greece. You can't argue that one set of conquerors have no rights but another should assume ownership. I know this will be too confusing for you.

This is such an embarrassing argument, I can’t believe you’ve actually gone for it. Why are the existing marbles in Athens? Why don’t we just claim them too?

Why do you need to know what nationality I am or if I’m landed gentry? The marbles you saw and the marbles I saw (I’ve seen the Athens ones too, mind you) were already damaged when we (you and me) saw them. Me being foreign or otherwise doesn’t change that.

I think (hope) what @xenia meant was that modern Britain is one of the best countries in the world for human rights in that if you experiences a human rights transgression here the law is on your side (although convictions for this should be much easier to get). There is a reason that we experience one of the highest rates of asylum seekers applications here. That's not to say our history of human rights is stellar, or we don't have things to improve on now, we absolutely do, but because of my sex, race and sexuality I am definitely glad that I am British over living in many other places.

It is interesting that some one said on this thread:

"The British brought civilization and better ways to less developed countries".

Because that is what we were taught in schools! I was taught it too. That we were the more advanced race, and wanted to show more basic races "better ways".

It was only when I was older, that I realised we don't have the right to invade other.l countries. That it is not a good thing to do.

Interestingly, I have heard a man in America say the same thing. That it was a good thing that "a more civilized race came over and took over the basic and simple Native Americans". That is what people are taught in schools.

@MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing

How about the Hagia Sophia, who owns that?

Should the Italian, Spanish and Dutch governments should be pursuing a claim against France to get the artwork back that was looted by Napoleon?

Most of it is in the Louvre.

What about the collection of Turners donated to the National Gallery of Ireland when Dublin was part of the United Kingdom? Who do they belong to?

If Scotland becomes independent, do they have to give back artworks bought by the UK government?

This stuff is a lot more complicated than mumsnet would have you believe.