AIBU to think that separated parents should support their children equally

[Thinkofthekids]

I've been reading a couple of threads recently where separated parents raising their children are getting very little support from the other parent, either childcare or financial support.

"He has the children 4 nights a month, rearranges whenever it suits him and pays me £30 a week" seems to be a common complaint.

One of my close friends is in this position, only her ex has never had their child overnight and won't have him alone (without my friend being there) as it's too much hassle for him. She works 3 days a week and relies on government help to pay for childcare. She gets £30 a month from him, which he pays irregularly. Another friend is wfh nights doing data entry. She looks after her child all day, starts work after he goes to bed and finishes around 3am. Sometimes she does shift work during the day, while trying to care for him at the same time.

AIBU to be absolutely furious on the children's behalf? The NRPs go on about how the RP (usually but not always a woman) 'needs to get of her arse and get a job' and 'shouldn't expect a free lunch', and it makes me so cross. She's often working at least 1.5 jobs anyway (looking after the kids and then trying to fit paid work around them), while they are doing sweet FA for their children.

My DH and I have all these plans for our kids, lots of stuff we want them to experience and get a chance to do in life. Don't all parents have these plans, even if their relationship doesn't work out and they split up? Don't the children still deserve a decent life, not the bare minimum? Why is it acceptable to leave your kids in difficult circumstances and your ex unable to get a decent well-paid job due to childcare commitments and then claim to be a good dad because you pay £30 a week and have the kids a few nights a month (cancelling whenever it suits you)?

AIBU to say that a decent parent is responsible for 50% of their children's day-to-day care and 50% of their expenses? And if they are not providing regular, committed childcare, they should pay closer to 100% of the children's expenses? Otherwise, they are not a decent parent. Being a parent brings many joys but it is also a huge commitment and burden. The burden of parenting should be shared equally by both parents, and we need a system which achieves this.

I don't really know about the Swedish model.. I think it involves more equal parenting from day 1?

It does. Which imo is what as a society we should push towards.

It also takes into account both parents incomes and the economical needs of the child (what that entails specifically I don't know!) And I believe if the paying parent doesn't pay the state does, and they pay it back.

@firstmentat, which country is that?

@TheBusDriver. I totally disagree, I'm afraid. If childcare isn't work, why do we pay others to do it? Why don't nursery staff etc look after children for free?

It's certainly not leisure, is it? If you're looking after children, you can't go to the gym, go for a run, lie on the couch ignoring them watching bad TV or go out with friends...Or many of the usual activities people do in their leisure time.

@dontdisturbmenow
One of the former Eatern Bloc countries.

I don't know anything about the Swedish system, can anyone explain?
I think everyone posting has valid points and everyone's point is valid as it probably comes from personal experiences either your own, relative, friend etc and that's why I believe one size does not fit all.
Sounds like some people would be happy with the £200 a month.... probably posters who have experienced of their exp avoiding maintenance. A poster pointed out that £400 out of a £1300 wage probably wouldn't leave the dad much to live on, and thats just the basics. Others have quite clearly stated their exp pays above and beyond as it's what they want for their child(ren). BTW I have no idea of the £400 per child was correct, or what it was based on, but I believe I read a while ago that maintenance via child support agency was based on child needs and not wants so things like food, clothing, heating, lighting etc needs money for birthday parties, gifts, activities etc wants and so not included. I dont think childcare is included either as it is assumed right, or wrongly that a proportion of that is covered by some form of benefit, whether that be childcare element of tax credits or I believe universal credit now helps with childcare costs.
I do think however, some dads will just pay CSA amount, others will contribute etc when they can, others will go above and beyond and I think that is down the person as an individual.
Someone I know gets £300 a month for her 2 high school age children. I believe it is CSA calculated and they stay with dad 2 nights a week. She absolutely believes she should receive more maintenance as I think she does live month on month. Im not talking poverty stricken or anything as I do believe if she was desperate her ex would help out. BUT... she works part time 3 days a week, receives child benefit, tax credits (I think) not Universal credit, council tax reduction etc not once has she thought about increasing her hours to boost her income a bit, and she could do this 100% if she wanted to. And this is why I think she never actually asks her ex for more money. Although this is just my opinion.

There's a bit about Sweden on here

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_support_by_country

@Thinkofthekids but you are paying a nursery for a service to look after your child. When looking after your kid it is not childcare

I think the % should be no lower than 20% and the minimum should be 20% of nnw at 35hrs.

Let's not forget income tax is 20% over personal allowance
National insurance is a additional 12%.

At 20% CMS you're almost deducting 50% of the NRP wage before it hits their bank.. how are they supposed to afford to rent a property so their children can visit? Feed them, clothe them, buy essentials for when they visit?

So a over 25 on nmw after tax and NI would take home £14,071 per year.
Once you remove a additional 20% for CMS they would only take home £10897 per year or £908 per month.

From this they need to pay for accomodation big enough for children, Bill's, travel costs to see/collect children, food to feed them, toys, activities, clothes, tooth brushes, toothpaste, and any other child essential toiletries. Yet they are not entitled to any additional child based income top up, and would receive the bare minimum top up in UC as a adult with no dependents. They would also only be entitled to UC support for a room in a shared house as they have no dependents living with them if they are under 35.

If anything you would push NRP on minimum wage to leave work as they would potentially be financially better off on benefits. As they would receive just under 10k in benefits but would also receive council tax reduction and JSA on top.

And would this 20% stay the same regardless of how many children you where paying for or would it increase as current CMS does now dependent on number of children?

Let's not forget
One child is 12%
Two is 16%
And
Three is 19% so almost at your 20% already

@TheBusDriver

I have a feeling we're not going to agree on this, but yes it is... Just unpaid work.

I dont think childcare is included either as it is assumed right, or wrongly that a proportion of that is covered by some form of benefit, whether that be childcare element of tax credits or I believe universal credit now helps with childcare costs.
But why is there an assumption that the resident parent should necessarily be on benefits? I think the cut-off point for help is relatively low, at £30K or something - and there's no way a single mother on £30K would be able to cover the full rate of ~£1.5K nursery fees for just one child, and also cover housing, food and bills.

Also the child action poverty group calculated that a single parent receiving child benefit and maximum child tax credits would have 69% of the cost of raising 2 children covered by benefit.

So out of that 400 per month a child costs, 69% can technically (obviously not applicable in all cases) be covered by benefit.
Which leaves each parent needing to contribute half of the remaining £124 per month.
Which means both parents are responsible for £62 per month.

If you want to work it out as a standardised sum of the cost of a child, that would be the only way to work it out fairly, unless you removed all child benefit and child elements from the RP. Otherwise they are in essence getting paid twice.

I dont agree with it, but I really think people need to really consider the maths behind their demands.

I think the cut-off point for help is relatively low, at £30K or something - and there's no way a single mother on £30K would be able to cover the full rate of ~£1.5K nursery fees for just one child, and also cover housing, food and bills.

The average UK childcare costs on 50 hours per week for a child minder is £957 per month, and nursery £1048
(source: moneyadviceservice)

At 30k per year income you would be eligible for 30 hours free childcare hours per week and Tax free childcare.

Source: I just calculated it on the government website

I think the cut-off point for help is relatively low, at £30K or something - and there's no way a single mother on £30K would be able to cover the full rate of ~£1.5K nursery fees for just one child, and also cover housing, food and bills.

Using turn to us benefit calculator.
If you earn 30k per year and have 2 children and childcare of 2k per month, you would be entitled to an additional £290 per week in UC, £151 in child benefit per month + tax free childcare.

Must say I'm actually surprised myself how much UC is for a single parent earning 30k with two children as was only expecting a additional £60ish per month o.O

(Source: turn2us benefits calculator)

@LittleFoxKit
I had no idea that the benefit cut off point was so high, I took £30K as the amount often quoted on threads about benefits. I earned significantly more than £30K, but really struggled to pay for childcare, as there was zero subsidy and the full bill was close to £3K (London here, and not even particularly central - same amount whether it is a nursery x2, childminder or a nanny).

For childcare it's pretty high yes. As I said upthread when Ds was tiny dp worked ft and me pt and we still got 150 quid a month or so towards childcare.