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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the Covid 19 crisis has revealed a scourge of ableism and ageism in our society?

552 replies

Madhairday · 06/06/2020 10:23

I see it on every thread about lockdown. The elderly (over 60s) and vulnerable (of whatever age) are again and again dehumanised and cast as less worthy of help than the young and the fit, who should be prioritised because they have longer and healthier life left before them. Phrases like one I saw just now about how these people will die soon anyway so why are children suffering?

I am really tired of being othered. I am really tired of being made the reason for the suffering endured by many in lockdown. Really tired of being told I should be grateful others are suffering for me. Just really tired.

Before all this I'd never have dreamed these attitudes would come to light, but in the past months I've been repeatedly punched in the gut with some of the words thrown out against the aged and the disabled and chronically ill. It seems that we truly live in a world where not all lives are equal, where in fact many are worth less than others.

Lots of people are suffering due to lockdown and the effects will continue to cause suffering. The shielded know this and are affected by it as much as everyone else. I have lost my income as well as not being able to touch another human being for nearly 3 months. Many of my shielded friends mental health is shot, too, yet on threads about mental health the shielded are yet again othered and in fact blamed for the mental health issues of those not shielding.

Many are suffering in lockdown. We know this. We know the NHS has cut off much treatment (largely because the spread of covid in hospitals is so uncontainable that they cannot risk bringing already vulnerable people onto wards as covid would exacerbate conditions and kill in greater numbers, as well as the risk for frontline staff, yet many people here seem to think the NHS has narrowed down 'because only covid deaths are important to them' Hmm )

I am deeply concerned at the level of ableism and ageism I see on here every single day at the moment. If we said someone else's life mattered less because they were black or gay we would rightly be torn to pieces, but so many are saying lives are less due to age and vulnerability, and this is going unchallenged, again and again and again.

I see it. I see it every day. I feel it deep down, a sense of worthlessness because I have long term chronic illnesses. I am likely to live many more years, however, but that doesn't fit in with the narrative so many have built around the shielded and those dying of Covid, that they must be near death anyway.

Do lives really rank one over the other due to age and illness? Is this where we are now?

I agree lockdown is hurting people. I am not one of the lockdown should last forever people. I'm just getting on with shielding quietly and carefully. But I do fear for a second wave if it's relaxed too quickly.

I would like to ask for some compassion today in the way people speak. I'd like to ask that people don't denegrate others as less worthy or state that covid is just a bad cold. Have a care for those who feel othered and dehumanised by the rhetoric that flies at us day after day.

OP posts:
ShinyFootball · 07/06/2020 15:53

That's not what that poster said. They said that a 95 yo dying is as tragic for their family as a child dying.

I can't imagine many people would agree with that, young or old.

I mean you could argue that a child under about 2 wouldn't have the awareness to know what dying meant so it matters less. But, it's not an argument people tend to make. There's a reason for that.

DomDoesWotHeWants · 07/06/2020 15:55

There really are some unpleasant and utterly self-obsessed people on this site.

Me me me me me
My kids my kids my kids.

Fuck the rest of you, especially if you're old. You're nearly dead anyway, hurry up and get out of my way.

Such charmers.

Haenow · 07/06/2020 15:56

@SecretSpAD

I know, right?! Some people have actually made some really good points about the impact of covid on children but they’ve drown out other people’s voices.

I am not pro lockdown and I am very concerned about certain vulnerable children who are currently unseen and under the radar. It’s a shame some people have derailed a thread to express any upset about how disabled/shielded people have been made to feel.

I am young, I work, I pay taxes, I volunteer, I have a family and I have a life. I am willing to remain shielded even as lockdown is lifted. I am not complaining but I want to be clear, I am NOT terminally ill and I should live another 40 odd years.

formerbabe · 07/06/2020 16:07

@haenow

I wasn't suggesting they get rid of the freedom pass. I was wondering why so many people are in favour of children's free bus travel being removed whilst being up in arms at the prospect of any changes to the freedom pass. It's not a race to the bottom.

formerbabe · 07/06/2020 16:09

But the death of a 95 year old who has lived a full life is not as tragic as the death of a teenager with their whole life ahead of them.

It is for the 95 year old and their family

I lost my grandparents in their late eighties. I was very upset but it wasn't a tragedy by any stretch. My cousin died at 21...that was a tragedy.

ShinyFootball · 07/06/2020 16:10

'Me me me me me
My kids my kids my kids.

Fuck the rest of you, especially if you're old. You're nearly dead anyway, hurry up and get out of my way.'

How does my post translate to that?

ShinyFootball · 07/06/2020 16:11

Formerbabe apparently that reaction is selfish and abnormal :/

This thread is bizarre.

Paintedmaypole · 07/06/2020 16:13

I haven't read every single post but this whole thing has been shit for different people in different ways. There are many young people with disabilities who seem to be forgotten about. The attitude to older people on MN stinks sometimes. I am nearly 70 and have an illness which puts me in the shielding category. Of course it would be more tragic if one of my children or grandchildren died than me ( to me it certainly would). I have had a good life on the whole. The method of dying via covid looks rather unpleasant. I am tired of the way people are being divided by age group on MN. (It's worse for this group, no that). I think accommodation and relationships, garden/ no garden, rich/ poor has more effect than age group. When this first started over 70s were being blamed for not taking it seriously, now it is being implied that they want kids and young people locked down to keep the safe and are fearful and selfish. The stereotyping is horrible, even implying that older people don't care about kids and only care for their own interests. I suspect some of you will dismiss my opinion and not read past my age. I am on old biddy anyway and not contributing tp the economy. I feel very sorry for younger people with disabilities and carers locked down trying to manage on their own.

saraclara · 07/06/2020 16:16

@flamingochill

With regards to the ageism if CV affected the young rather than the elderly I suspect that only children would be at home because politicians would want to keep their voters sweet. I really don't think that the elderly would have accepted being on lockdown when they are low risk the same way that children have.
That's rubbish. The majority of older people are grandparents, with grandchildren they adore. The idea of a pandemic that mostly affects children terrifies me, as a grandmother. I'm hugely relieved that this one doesn't, even thigh I am now at risk.
DomDoesWotHeWants · 07/06/2020 16:17

How does my post translate to that?

I didn't mention your name. It was a general comment on the tone of a lot of posts on this thread.

ShinyFootball · 07/06/2020 16:27

Oh ok

It came right after mine and in the middle of the conversation abouta 95 yo great grandparent dying is the same tragedy to a family as a child in the family dying.

Paintedmaypole · 07/06/2020 16:30

What saraclara said. It is an absolute insult to say that older people would not wish to protect their grandchildren but it is being said quite frequently on MN.

DomDoesWotHeWants · 07/06/2020 16:36

@ShinyFootball

Sorry about that. Your post wasn't there when I started typing. My 98 year old father dying was a dreadful tragedy to me. All lives matter.

ShinyFootball · 07/06/2020 16:37

Ok.

Haenow · 07/06/2020 16:59

@formerbabe

No, I know you weren’t. Apologies if it came acriss that way. I was just saying it’s not about children’s free travel vs older peoples travel. Restricting the freedom pass has a huge impact on the disabled community which is an important part of this post that has been ignored by some!!

Paintedmaypole · 07/06/2020 17:12

Younger people with disabilities are in a very difficult position and, as you say, they are being ignored.

ChocolatelyAsFuck · 07/06/2020 17:35

It’s not about “who is more expendable, a 95yr old or a 20yr old.” It’s about the fact it’s a dangerous slippery slope to start designating anyone into the “expendable” category. Because where does it end? You start by saying the life of a 95yr old isn’t worth much so it doesn’t matter if they die/are sacrificed for the greater good. Okay what about a 90yr old. An 80yr old. A 75yr old. Where do you draw the line?

I really enjoyed the dystopian sci-fi film Logan’s Run but I don’t particularly want to live in it!

And if you declare elderly people to be disposable, it’s a hop and a skip to declare other “undesirable” or unprofitable categories of people, like disabled people, or benefits recipients, to be disposable.

The media has for a long time engaged in all kinds of subtle propaganda to demonise and dehumanise certain classes of people. Immigrants, black people. Black people are being murdered in America because society has been brainwashed by centuries of white supremacy to believe black lives are less important. Jews were genocided in WWII because of a long history of propaganda aimed at casting them as evil and non-human, and thus not deserving of human rights.

Human history is littered with examples of situations where evil was allowed to spread, because a certain group of people were made out to not have lives worth protecting.

I don’t agree with the way lockdown has been handled. But history shows that trying to paint ANY category of people as disposable does not end well.

Barbie222 · 07/06/2020 17:48

@ChocolatelyAsFuck I agree.

I also don't think people should hold up examples of older people who are happy for lockdown to end and insinuate that all older people should just get behind them or they're selfish. I think that's manipulative. I don't agree with how the lockdown's been handled either but I certainly don't like the value judgements implicit on this thread.

Paintedmaypole · 07/06/2020 17:49

I think younger people with disabilities ,especially if they need to shield, use public transport in order to work etc are getting a very rough deal and there are people who do not appear to care. Most posters stop short of coming on MN to be rude about them though. Older people are in general having an easier time because there pensions arrive anyway etc. However it seems perfectly acceptable to come on here and write insults about them. OP YANBU, ageism and ableism is rampant.

Jaxhog · 07/06/2020 17:52

Human history is littered with examples of situations where evil was allowed to spread, because a certain group of people were made out to not have lives worth protecting.

I don’t agree with the way lockdown has been handled. But history shows that trying to paint ANY category of people as disposable does not end well.

Well said. I'm truly astonished that people don't see this. Since when is a way of life more important than an actual life? Oh wait, weren't we celebrating the end of WII recently?

CherryPavlova · 07/06/2020 18:27

*Human history is littered with examples of situations where evil was allowed to spread, because a certain group of people were made out to not have lives worth protecting.

I don’t agree with the way lockdown has been handled. But history shows that trying to paint ANY category of people as disposable does not end well.*

This multiple times.

formerbabe · 07/06/2020 18:30

We don't and never have prioritised life over everything.

If we did, we'd ban cars, extreme sports and all manner of dangerous things.

It's all a balancing act between quality of life, actual life and freedom.

ShinyFootball · 07/06/2020 18:43

The post in question was saying that a 95 dying is an equal tragedy in that family as a child dying.

I get what people are saying, I really do. But, most people bar a few on this thread don't think like that. It's said that you never get over losing a child, and I think most people would feel that way. If that upsets people I'm sorry but it's a very unusual way of thinking, to think otherwise.

rainkeepsfallingdown · 07/06/2020 18:49

I don't think MN is reflective of the real world, thankfully.

I've read posts on this site which basically equate to, 'let's get this second wave over with and let everyone die now who was going to eventually catch it and die' - I wonder if those people will feel differently when they get older and/or develop an underlying health condition. Until Covid-19, there was always support for things like life-prolonging medical treatments, to allow people more time to spend with their families. Now it seems anyone who is at risk of dying is just an inconvenience. Many posters on this site have got a lot more selfish. Or just started showing their true colours.

Where I live, people are falling over themselves to help strangers who are self-isolating or shielding - no questions asked. If anything, I think Covid-19 has highlighted the goodness of some people. There are people around here who are cooking 100s of free meals each day to deliver to people whose incomes have fallen or who can't leave their homes. Neighbours are doing the shopping for elderly people in their street they had never even spoken to before. I'm proud of my local community for pulling together in this way.

In the real world, Covid-19 has revealed that some people are absolute angels. However, it's also revealed some people are selfish and without compassion.

Swings and roundabouts.

Madhairday · 07/06/2020 18:50

Really good post @ChocolatelyAsFuck.

Also agree that talking about elderly people being willing to step aside in order that the young and fit have a chance at life can contribute to a very slippery slope way of thinking and categorising the value of people. If someone says their 95 year old grandma says this someone else starts talking about their 80 year old grandad then 70 year old mother. Then it keeps escalating until younger people with disabilities are included in this kind of sacrificial narrative, and if they aren't then they should be ashamed. I'm 48, I have much life left if my disease doesn't degenerate too much more. Should I be offering to step aside because the young deserve more life? And if I don't, should I be made to feel ashamed of myself for not thinking of the children? And then what about the 25 year old with cystic fibrosis who might not make it to 40; should she now take on this sacrificial narrative and see herself as lesser?

Slippery slope.

OP posts: