To think the Covid 19 crisis has revealed a scourge of ableism and ageism in our society?

[Madhairday]

I see it on every thread about lockdown. The elderly (over 60s) and vulnerable (of whatever age) are again and again dehumanised and cast as less worthy of help than the young and the fit, who should be prioritised because they have longer and healthier life left before them. Phrases like one I saw just now about how these people will die soon anyway so why are children suffering?

I am really tired of being othered. I am really tired of being made the reason for the suffering endured by many in lockdown. Really tired of being told I should be grateful others are suffering for me. Just really tired.

Before all this I'd never have dreamed these attitudes would come to light, but in the past months I've been repeatedly punched in the gut with some of the words thrown out against the aged and the disabled and chronically ill. It seems that we truly live in a world where not all lives are equal, where in fact many are worth less than others.

Lots of people are suffering due to lockdown and the effects will continue to cause suffering. The shielded know this and are affected by it as much as everyone else. I have lost my income as well as not being able to touch another human being for nearly 3 months. Many of my shielded friends mental health is shot, too, yet on threads about mental health the shielded are yet again othered and in fact blamed for the mental health issues of those not shielding.

Many are suffering in lockdown. We know this. We know the NHS has cut off much treatment (largely because the spread of covid in hospitals is so uncontainable that they cannot risk bringing already vulnerable people onto wards as covid would exacerbate conditions and kill in greater numbers, as well as the risk for frontline staff, yet many people here seem to think the NHS has narrowed down 'because only covid deaths are important to them' )

I am deeply concerned at the level of ableism and ageism I see on here every single day at the moment. If we said someone else's life mattered less because they were black or gay we would rightly be torn to pieces, but so many are saying lives are less due to age and vulnerability, and this is going unchallenged, again and again and again.

I see it. I see it every day. I feel it deep down, a sense of worthlessness because I have long term chronic illnesses. I am likely to live many more years, however, but that doesn't fit in with the narrative so many have built around the shielded and those dying of Covid, that they must be near death anyway.

Do lives really rank one over the other due to age and illness? Is this where we are now?

I agree lockdown is hurting people. I am not one of the lockdown should last forever people. I'm just getting on with shielding quietly and carefully. But I do fear for a second wave if it's relaxed too quickly.

I would like to ask for some compassion today in the way people speak. I'd like to ask that people don't denegrate others as less worthy or state that covid is just a bad cold. Have a care for those who feel othered and dehumanised by the rhetoric that flies at us day after day.

You can take your children to the park, to the beach, to a country park. Yes playgrounds are shut but so are other things that elderly people might want to go to - my parents are in their eighties. Three times a week they go to the gym with thirty other older people - they can't do that. They all go to the theatre, restaurant, cinema - they can't do any of that.

So, yes, if you play golf or want to buy a car those are available.

If you want to go to the park or to the beach - then that's available.

So, yes, if you play golf or want to buy a car those are available

So people who are financially comfortable can do what they want...

Oh and my DC are pretty fed up of walking through the park but not being able to really do anything...have you ever met a child? They quite like playing and socialising with other children.

Oh and they'd quite like an education.

But I'm really thrilled that middle aged men can play golf and will soon be able to go the pub.

We all know that they are the most important people in society.

@Nihiloxica

How exactly do we risk assess for selfish people who decide they don't need to follow the rules designed to keep infection rates at a low level?

Assume that they've given up a quarter of a year's earnings to keep you safe and maybe can't afford to keep doing it?

Making our own assessments of risk was completely normal only 3 short months ago.

Why can people not get it in their heads that lockdown was not to protect the shielding group? It was to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed. Whether you agree with lockdown or not is irrelevant. You are acting as though you have sacrificed income for us. You haven’t. We have all sacrificed for wider society. I do not agree with how the government have handled most of this by the way and I am not pro lockdown but I am sick of certain posters acting all high and mighty as if they’ve locked down specifically for the shielding group. You haven’t! I am willing to continue to shielding as lockdown is eased, no complaints from me. If you think my finances, my family’s education, my career and my mental health hasn’t also suffered, you’d be very wrong. I want to see society ease back in to normal and I know I’ll be one of the last to re-join. You are not protecting me, I am protecting me. You did not lock down for me. We locked down as per government advice for everyone.

Oh come on

Golf courses have been opened because they facilitate social distancing. It's not a conspiracy against you or your children.

You're acting like every older person, men and women, like and want to.play golf so they've been accommodated but the only thing that children could possibly enjoy is the.playground.

What do you think all of the people are doing who don't like golf, can't play golf, can't afford golf or aren't capable of playing golf are doing? How many people do you think are actually benefitting from having golf clubs open?

As for car showrooms, well, it's all about the economy right? That's what you're all.demanding - re open the economy. Cars are big ticket items - kick start the economy.

Golf courses have been opened because they facilitate social distancing. It's not a conspiracy against you or your children

You could easily socially distance in zoos and museums. Why aren't they open? Sunlight apparently kills covid fast so yes, playgrounds could open with minimal risk.

Oh and my DC are pretty fed up of walking through the park but not being able to really do anything...have you ever met a child? They quite like playing and socialising with other children.

^This. My DDs have been missing their friends so much, and also their grandmas. I'm vulnerable myself, as is my DH, but locking down like this is just so unfair on them.

Bold fail, apologies!

On a different note, some mini golf places are opening which is something to do with kids.

I hope everyone concerned about the impact on children has written to their MP about the government taking away FSM vouchers this summer. Many children who have FSM would usually rely on free meals at holiday clubs in the summer and they have had no direction as to whether they can open. There will be many hungry children this summer.

I know lockdown was to ensure the NHS was not swamped but now we have all those Nightingales and 4000 spare beds in London at excel etc we should fully open schools again as we have the capacity to handle extra cases and children need an education and working parents need a break before the school holiday. I have not seen my grandchildren since Christmas. I can cope with that but children not getting an education is not the greater good and most older people with children and grandchildren would agree.

@Xenia

I’m pleased you’ve finally acknowledged you didn’t lock down for us poor unfortunate souls.
I agree we can start opening things up. Many of us shielding are not objecting because we shall continue to shield regardless and recognise the impact lockdown has had on the economy, education and mental health etc. We aren’t oblivious nor are we exempt to other types of suffering. It is possible to be included in the extremely clinically vulnerable group and have some empathy, ya know?!

@Useruseruserusee

I hope everyone concerned about the impact on children has written to their MP about the government taking away FSM vouchers this summer. Many children who have FSM would usually rely on free meals at holiday clubs in the summer and they have had no direction as to whether they can open. There will be many hungry children this summer.

So irrelevant - this thread isn’t about children.

You could easily socially distance in zoos and museums.

Could you? How?

How will you make sure that every patron stays two.metres from everyone else? Will you have a kind of chess board marked round the zoo? All stay in your own little square? Can't group together to look at the elephants. Have you seen how long queues are at supermarkets because it's a one out, one in policy plus a one way system inside - how can you do that in a zoo or a museum?

Xenia

Why do you think the Nightingales remained largely empty? I'll tell you - because they haven't got the staff. Honestly, you don't understand the complexities of nursing a ventilated patient. It's not any nurse who can do it and training takes a very long time - not just a couple of months.

Any hospital that wanted to send a patient to the Nightingale had to provide ITU staff - the hospitals had no capacity to do this and so kept the patients in the normal hospitals.

Please, you all have to start listening to the people who are working in the NHS. Having 4000 beds is no good if you don't have staff to run those beds.

And the death rate for patients admitted to ITU is 50% so your casual "4000 beds in Nightingale hospitals" is casually killing off half of all patients admitted there.

The NHS simply will never be able to cope with the casualties if COVID is allowed to run through the population. They will never have enough staff or enough beds. Not to mention the rest of the country's infrastructure. This is what you aren't getting.

The country locked down because of exponential growth. Had they not locked down the NHS would have been swamped with patients. Those patients would have included essential workers in sufficient volume to shut down the essential infrastructure - supermarkets, food chain, electricity and water services, communication industry, banks - everywhere that employs people and on which you relied during lockdown would have been severely impacted.

Lockdown was to protect everyone and society too.

That's why they are trying to be cautious now. I dare say government are terrified at the prospect of a second wave - if they don't lockdown the NHS will be swamped, essential services will struggle massively. On the flip side I doubt as a country we can afford to lockdown again. It's a no win situation. The only hope is to prevent a second wave. Which they can't do.if everyone is demanding that everything get back to normal - now.

I don’t think the elderly matter less but equally I don’t see why they matter more than children either, which is the situation we currently have.

How will you make sure that every patron stays two.metres from everyone else? Will you have a kind of chess board marked round the zoo? All stay in your own little square? Can't group together to look at the elephants. Have you seen how long queues are at supermarkets because it's a one out, one in policy plus a one way system inside - how can you do that in a zoo or a museum?

You can easily organize it like they do in supermarkets. In supermarkets anyway, people don't keep to the two metre rule.

@SudokuBook

I don’t think the elderly matter less but equally I don’t see why they matter more than children either, which is the situation we currently have.

Why do you think the elderly are even being considered?

The elderly, the shielded, the vulnerable - none of us are being considered. We've all pretty much been left to manage best way we can.

The country hasn't got back to normal yet because the government have made a mess of it and can't figure a way out that won't lead to a second wave. It's the country that is being protected - not vulnerable people.

You can easily organize it like they do in supermarkets. In supermarkets anyway, people don't keep to the two metre rule

Don't be silly. When have you walked around a zoo in single file, not able to stop and look at anything? You can't stop because the people behind you can't move forward until you move so you'd have to keep moving.

Can you honestly not imagine the problems of socially distancing a zoo?

No I cant. Zoo's are outside predominantly. There are not huge crowds generally and there's usually plenty of space.

I’m in Ireland and Dublin zoo is open, it was one of the first things to get up and running.

Zoos are a doddle so long as you keep numbers low.

No I cant. Zoo's are outside predominantly. There are not huge crowds generally and there's usually plenty of space.

Do you normally stay two metres away from every other person when you visit a zoo? I've never had that experience ever. There's always groups of people jostling at each enclosure to see the animals.

Anyway, pointless us arguing. They'll open when they are allowed to open and this thread is about the language used to describe the shielded and the vulnerable, not operating procedures for zoos.

Do you normally stay two metres away from every other person when you visit a zoo?

No because there was no social distancing then

@formerbabe

Do you normally stay two metres away from every other person when you visit a zoo?

No because there was no social distancing then

Right, so it's pointless you saying that because it was ok before it's ok now.

I'm.sure they'll open them when the consider it's ok to do so.

I really don’t understand why more open spaces aren’t being opened. Evidence has shown transmission outside is much lower than initially though. They can limit numbers. Themes parks in America are trying this. It’s not impossible. I do wonder if it’s financially viable for the zoos though, which is deeply concerning. The theme parks in America like a Disney can afford to open but limit more than smaller zoos here in the UK.

We did not lockdown to protect the elderly and vulnerable. The virus reduced capacity in the NHS by taking out large numbers of staff, the inability to test meant more had to stay home than was necessary. Many businesses were suffering staff shortages as were school and services like rubbish collection. About the only essential service not at risk was the supply of electricity.

Lockdown was too late because some people didnt want it and "it's just the flu". Flu does not kill as many people nor do such a high proportion of the infected require hospital care. It requires a far higher level of resources to treat and you cant immunise your health care staff against it.

We locked down to provide a breathing space, make sure there was capacity for the NHS to treat the working age population and to protect other essential services from collapse. Lockdown should have allowed time to build up supplies of PPE. It did allow time for better treatments to begin to emerge.

At the time we locked down many people had already avoiding risky situations, closing down the economy. Large events were being called off. Now it will take longer to restart the economy because we were too slow and have not eliminated the virus, just made space in ICU. Those who said "it is just flu" helped to make lockdown longer than needed.

The elderly (over 60s) and vulnerable (of whatever age) are again and again dehumanised and cast as less worthy of help than the young and the fit

Totally agree @Madhairday I've been shocked by the casual selfish ageism on MN around COVID and lockdown.

What people don't seem to understand is that we are a society, a community.

I'm disgusted at the way that anyone over 60 is written off - I'm over 60 and I suspect I work longer hours, have paid more tax over my life, sand contribute more to the community through my work, than a heck of a lot of 30 year olds complaining. But this virus means anyone over 50 is 12 times more likely to die than people 18-40; and anyone over 60 is 19 times more likely to die.

And that is before other "underlying illnesses" are accounted for.

But as Rory Kinnear said about his sister: she died of C-19. She had disabilities, but what killed her was C-19.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/12/rory-kinnearsister-protect-vulnerable-coronavirus-rory-kinnear

Some people on MN could do with reading this having a good long think about their level of care and compassion.