Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Should I pay the nursery?

49 replies

TileLane · 04/06/2020 17:24

Am I being unreasonable for refusing to pay?

Background: ...

Given the pandemic, our nursery made the decision to close for the foreseeablefuture on 31 March, despite the government directing nurseries to remain open for key workers.

As a resultof them closing we had little option but to seek alternative childcare arrangements which came at a cost.

On the 29 March the nursery posted a message on the communication app, stating that to retain a place at the nursery, they would seek 25% of usual child care costs during the pandemic.

Several days later and following an outcry from parents, this message was deleted and another message appeared stating that the fee would now be a one off 25% of usual childcare costs to retain a place at nursery, this fee would effectively be a refundable deposit.

We decided not to retain the place at nursery and sent a message to confirm that we wouldn't be taking them up on the offer.

We have today received a phone callfrom the nursery, stating their intention to invoice one months fees (circa £1k) as a notice period...
even though it was them who chose to shut - they made their nursery unavailable for childcareservices during the notice period which was at a cost to ourselves.

They keep referring to the agreement, however, despite three requests, i still haven't received a copy.

I go out of my way to manage our finances efficiently and as a rule I do not pay for services that I do not receive.

I got a bit mad on the phone and told them, the only way i would pay is if directed by a court... was I unreasonable?

OP posts:
Lockeduporknockedup · 04/06/2020 18:32

@MrsWx

  1. She gave them a month's notice - they chose not to open during that month so can't charge her for it.
  2. As PP said, the contract is frustrated anyway so they can't rely on it.
  3. They tried to unilaterally change the contract - they have no legal right to do that.
So, as PP said, OP owes them nothing.
Tumbleweed101 · 04/06/2020 18:32

Nurseries aren’t getting full furlough money for their staff, some is coming from funding. As this was a last min thing from the government a lot of nurseries had planned to pay other expenses from the funding and then couldn’t, therefore are struggle as much as ever.

Our nursery stayed open and hasn’t charged parents but we are struggling for her the insurance to pay out and need loans for other expenses which may have a knock on effect to future fees - If we can afford to stay open.

If you need to give notice usually then it makes sense why they are charging. I don’t necessarily agree with it but they do need to stay above water and weather the crisis too. If they could have used the furlough scheme fully it may not have been an issue.

Nopainnogain20 · 04/06/2020 18:35

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

I didn’t realise you still hoped to have a place without paying ....Hmm
Most nurseries won't be full though so lots of us are in the same board to expect not to pay for retainer fee. If this nursery is full then we can look for another?

I think OP stated that she's due soon and will take maternity leave. So they are only look at a couple of sessions a week with this nursery or others

Chandler12 · 04/06/2020 18:37

@MrsWx No she doesn’t. Google frustrated contracts. It’s right there in the post you replied to.

SandieCheeks · 04/06/2020 18:38

Did you actually give a month's notice at the end of March?

kirinm · 04/06/2020 18:44

Not a point to do with the OP but I think people are naive at best if they think there is suddenly going to be an abundance of space at nurseries once this is over. Nurseries and childminders can't afford to stay open and they'll close permanently.

Howmuchlongercanthislast · 04/06/2020 18:49

If they receive 3/4 year old funding from the LA then contact the early years and childcare department and seek their advice. Tell the nurser that you are intending to do that

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 04/06/2020 19:02

Most nurseries won't be full though so lots of us are in the same board to expect not to pay for retainer fee. If this nursery is full then we can look for another? well many will just close up shop! People already have waiting lists to get into good nurseries, maybe in cities it’s possible to find another, not so sure about rural settings.

TileLane · 04/06/2020 19:03

Howmuchlongercanthislast... sadley dd1 is just 2, so we pay 80% with a 20% tax topup...

Just googled frustrated contract and i think this sums up the situation well....

''A contract may bedischarged by frustration. A contract may befrustratedwhere there exists a change in circumstances, after the contract was made,which is not the fault of either of the parties, which renders the contract either impossible to perform or deprives the contract of its commercial purpose. Where a contract is found to befrustrated, each party isdischarged from future obligations under the contract and neither party may sue for breach. The allocation of loss is decided by theLaw Reform (Frustrated Contracts) Act1943''

OP posts:
SandieCheeks · 04/06/2020 19:18

When did you actually give notice though?

TileLane · 04/06/2020 19:22

We haven't formally said 'we give notice'

From the message at 31 March when we said we wouldn't pay a 25% retainer to keep the place, they have taken this as notice.

They shut the nursery, revoked services and now want payment for services which i needed but they refused to provide

OP posts:
OnlyFoolsnMothers · 04/06/2020 19:26

We haven't formally said 'we give notice' that’s an issue. You say they took this as notice, did they say they are terminating your space?

Bit harsh to say they shut the nursery and refused to provide a service, we were locked down.

MrsWx · 04/06/2020 19:35

@Lockeduporknockedup

She didn't give notice though, for March to be her notice she would have had to tell them end of February.

The nursery chose to charge 25% for fees instead of full amount - they didn't need to do this.

Because of complaints they changed it to a one off fee of 25% to keep your space but was refundable - again they didn't need to do this.

OP decides she's not paying the retainer, therefore doesn't want her space and is leaving. (yet did want to stay, just didn't want to pay a retainer for it)

So she would still need to pay for April as her months notice would be 31st March - April which is what the nursery is asking for.

Thanks for the information about frustrated contracts, but all this tells me is that case law exists for frustrated contacts. There's no legal ruling that this case law now applies to OP's contract. As far as I'm aware the current government regulations do not prevent nursery providers charging - if there was a legal ruling this would be widely communicated and nursery providers wouldn't be able to do so.

kirinm · 04/06/2020 19:48

If you haven't formally given notice I'd say you owe them money. You can't leave a tenancy by just refusing to pay and you can't expect to end a contract with the nursery in the same way either.

TileLane · 04/06/2020 19:50

conversation went like ...

Spoken to your other half... who has asked us to talk to you re fees..ok
Do you plan on sending Dd1 back to nursery... me... yes probably in Jul.. ok.. you say you don't want to pay retainer, me..not really... ok well i've spoken to other member of staff who confirms message at end of March acts as notice.. me..ok... in that case we will register your dd1 as a new student when she comes back.. me.. fine no.problem, she will receive the same great care either way...

Then they said in that case we want 1 months notice... circa 1k and we'll be sending an invoice...
no explaining options, just straight to it... i was a little taken aback and spoke my mind

I take your point regarding being a bit harsh... but their communication around admin type things is rubbish and they seem to make it up as they go along..

I'm not too

OP posts:
TileLane · 04/06/2020 19:58

Mrs WX.... nursery chose to revoke services.. other nurseries stayed open... do you think i should pay double for childcare?

More than happy to pay for services received...

Using your analogy...If the landlord asks you to leave mid contract as there is an issue with the house due to a lightning strike, would you still expect to pay rent?

OP posts:
SandieCheeks · 04/06/2020 20:21

@TileLane

conversation went like ...

Spoken to your other half... who has asked us to talk to you re fees..ok
Do you plan on sending Dd1 back to nursery... me... yes probably in Jul.. ok.. you say you don't want to pay retainer, me..not really... ok well i've spoken to other member of staff who confirms message at end of March acts as notice.. me..ok... in that case we will register your dd1 as a new student when she comes back.. me.. fine no.problem, she will receive the same great care either way...

Then they said in that case we want 1 months notice... circa 1k and we'll be sending an invoice...
no explaining options, just straight to it... i was a little taken aback and spoke my mind

I take your point regarding being a bit harsh... but their communication around admin type things is rubbish and they seem to make it up as they go along..

I'm not too

Did you have that conversation in March, or just now?
MrsWx · 04/06/2020 20:34

nursery chose to revoke services..

No they didn't, they were forced to close.

do you think i should pay double for childcare?

No, I said above I don't agree with the nursery charging for fees, but at the same time I understand why they do.
I expect you to pay a retainer for a service which you want to later use and would have got back anyway, otherwise to pay your months notices for no longer wanting the services which is only not available to you just now.

If the landlord asks you to leave mid contract as there is an issue with the house due to a lightning strike, would you still expect to pay rent?

This is a totally different circumstance. I presume if that happened you and the landlord would be in agreement to terminate mid contract. Alternatively your landlord/insurer would be responsible for finding alternative accommodation. Which our local authority was for our key workers when telling the private nurseries to shut.

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 04/06/2020 20:43

I think nurseries shouldn’t have expected pay when closed but when open, people should pay full fees even if they aren’t happy to send their
Children back now. I think that’s a logical way of doing things.

C152H · 04/06/2020 21:23

I'm sure I saw a thread a few days ago with helpful links (particularly about the frustrated contract element), but I can't find it now. However, you may find it helpful to read section 3.10 of

www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-early-years-and-childcare-closures/coronavirus-covid-19-early-years-and-childcare-closures

and CMA statements

www.gov.uk/government/news/covid-19-cma-to-investigate-cancellation-policy-concerns

Lockeduporknockedup · 04/06/2020 21:34

@MrsWx I am a qualified and practicing lawyer. You, very clearly, are not. I have neither the time nor the patience to explain to you regarding frustration why you are wrong, but you very much are. OP gave notice at the start of April, so needs to only pay fees until the start of May. Given that the nursery did not charge any fees between the start of April and the start of May (as they provided no services), they can charge her the full fees of NOTHING. They offered a separate agreement with the retainer, OP said no. Just as you can say no if someone offers to sell you a car. As OP said no, she does not retain a place and does not need to pay.

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 04/06/2020 21:38

Lockeduporknockedup question though, our contract specifically states notice in writing to the management, to avoid word of mouth, missed messages via the staff. Would that be the OPs issue?

MrsWx · 04/06/2020 22:50

@Lockeduporknockedup

You being a lawyer doesn't change the fact she hasn't formally given a months notice though. OP wasn't planning on sending her child back to nursery until July. So had the nursery taken her notice from recent conversation she would have had to pay a months fees anyway, June to July.
She turned down the offer of a retainer, which she is more than entitled to do like you said. That still isn't giving a notice though, which as you've pointed out, would have been a separate agreement.

Of course if the contract is frustrated, which I don't know because I, very clearly, am not a lawyer, then nothing else matters really.
But you could have just said that.

TileLane · 05/06/2020 00:06

Hi All

Just want to say a big thanks for all your messages and input.

Given the guidance by the CMA, the lawful position seems pretty clear, however, perhaps not the ethical one... and maybe I have been a bit harsh...

Life isn't always black and white and things get a bit ambiguous at times...

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread