To wonder how self employed people (& others) are meant to afford to self isolate?

[AvocadosBeforeMortgages]

Apparently people who have been in contact with a confirmed case are being told to self isolate for 14 days, even when they've not got any symptoms. According to the NHS website, you can't get an at home testing kit unless you have symptoms, and even then you might not be prioritised.

Self employed people don't get paid if we don't work. Many of us have found ourselves effectively banned from working and then excluded from all forms of COVID-related financial support - for example, I can't get a penny because I went self employed last year (so no SEISS), don't have premises covered by SBRR (so no £10k grant), don't have any way of paying back a loan, and I've even been told that I qualify for £0 in Universal Credit (and even if it did, it wouldn't cover my most modest living expenses in a rough area of a cheap city). I'm also a private tenant - so no mortgage holiday; landlord insists on full rent. I've been through all the other schemes and I'm not eligible for any of those either. I'm dependent on the now-cancelled summer events season for my income for the entire year; there's very limited demand for my business in the winter months.

Now, apparently, even after lockdown lifts and I try to earn what little money I can in the last of the summer, I can be told to self isolate and not work for 14 days, with no word on how I'm meant to cover my additional losses, and with the knowledge that I could be told to self isolate repeatedly. I cannot afford to self isolate!

A sense of civic duty doesn't pay the rent or put food on the table.

Could you get a job in the meantime to tide you over?

Many people won't have had close contact with anyone outside their household since lockdown began. I haven't. I've always been more than two metres away from others in shops or while walking, except very briefly if I've had to pass anyone, which doesn't count as close contact.

If I've spoken to someone in a shop, it's been from more than two metres away or through a screen. Therefore if someone told me that I've been in close contact with someone with symptoms, I would know that it was untrue, especially if they weren't telling me who, where, when etc. And I wouldn't self isolate on that basis.

It's unworkable.

I agree OP. It's something that has been worrying me too, even though I do actually work from home so it won't affect me in any significant way.

I am by no means a tin foil hat wearer and I understand that we have to be creative and bear hardships to get past this virus, but there are just so many avenues for mistakes and malicious reporting.

The leaving a phone in a locker next to someone else is an excellent and valid point (one I thought of was phones being left on bed side tables in new build flats - surely possible to pick up a signal from your neighbour?).

I doubt it will be much of an issue for me personally as I very rarely leave the house at the moment (not shielding, just introverted and lazy).. but I would be very pissed off if I am then forced to isolate due to an error! And, as you say, it could be economically devastating for others.

Therefore if someone told me that I've been in close contact with someone with symptoms, I would know that it was untrue, especially if they weren't telling me who, where, when etc. And I wouldn't self isolate on that basis.

That's all fine when it's a voluntary system. What happens when it becomes legally enforceable, as threatened?

If it's legally enforcable, it needs some level of accuracy.

They can't determine someone's position from their phone if they can't prove it was on their person at that time and the person who's phone it was says it was in their locker or at home when they were out.

They can't claim that next door neighbours that may have never actually met each other are within two metres of each other all night when they're both asleep in their own beds but their phones are less than two metres apart on their bedside tables.

They can't take the word of someone who lies for malicious reasons or doesn't understand the definition of close contact.

I suspect a lot of people are worrying about nothing as they're not going to be told to self isolate because they've never been in close contact with anyone outside their own household, because unless you're going on public transport, or have close contact at work, which most people outside the health and social care sector shouldn't, I don't understand when it would happen if you're staying two metres apart from other people when you're out and about.

The leaving a phone in a locker next to someone else is an excellent and valid point (one I thought of was phones being left on bed side tables in new build flats - surely possible to pick up a signal from your neighbour?).

Well if you are worried about this, just switch Bluetooth off on your phone, solves the problem.

The App isn't even part of this yet though.

Can't link to the 2m apart but for over 15mins as it was a tv interview sometime on BBC news last week can't recall and am hoping it was erroneous. However, people often charge phones in the gym classes I teach obviously by a socket but no where near themselves. I will either have to stop this or don't download the app when it comes out (if?)

Obviously not relevant til 4th July at the earliest.

As for other work to tide over, I looked, every job is either in a care home or in visiting care and that seemed a big risk to be given the numbers we have heard about in the news.

Weirdly, no employer is going to take on someone who has just been told not to leave the house for a fortnight.

I meant to get a job now, not wait until you're told to self-isolate. Obviously you can't get a job when you are isolating.

YANBU. I’m in the same boat. Newly self employed and can’t get anything from any scheme. If I apply for UC I loose tax credits.

It’s beyond rubbish. I’ve bust a gut for the last two years to get established and my years income is gone - work is seasonal events based and face to face, I can’t do the stuff that earns the money from home. Events aren’t going to be happening anytime before August earliest.

In my work I’m in close contact with clients. Social distancing will not be easy. If I get told to self isolate I could easily loose £4000+ income from lost jobs - with extreme pressure to find talented replacement and not leave clients in the lurch.

I’ve no idea how to survive. Working from home with kids in tow hasn’t worked either. But I have to get through because I’m fully booked for 2021 and can’t let clients down.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/government-suggests-brits-use-holiday-22102688

"Government suggests Brits use holiday to cover self isolation due to coronavirus
People who are asked to self isolate at home under the new test and trace regime will be entitled to statutory sick pay if they can no longer work. But the official advice suggests that some people might prefer to use their holiday entitlement to cover the time at home"

nazir afzal
@nazirafzal
·
May 31
Asked how we’ll know “track & trace” call requiring you to isolate is genuine
Govt’s answer via Jenny Harries is that “it will be evident from how they speak”
I spent a lifetime prosecuting people speaking professionally while taking your money & your lives
#DowningStreetBriefing

twitter.com/nazirafzal/status/1267123381285027842?s=20

There needs to be a facility so people can end the call and phone a number if they are worried.

The trouble is that the call centre WILL NOT tell Edward and Fred who tested positive. I have a friend working at a contact tracing call centre and they have confirmed this.

I'm fairly sure that the tested positive person can give the contact tracers permission to reveal who they are, unless that is just in Scotland.

It's a bloody mess op. It's so unfair that you've fallen through the cracks of the support.

@HeIenaDove

There needs to be a facility so people can end the call and phone a number if they are worried.

There is. Don’t read the headlines on this. I haven’t read one that was remotely true. It’s like they don’t want the public to comply because Covid sells papers and makes people click.

Matt H said that if the contract tracers phone you the number will show as

0300 135 000

I have saved this is my phone.

@Norabird

Weirdly, no employer is going to take on someone who has just been told not to leave the house for a fortnight.

I meant to get a job now, not wait until you're told to self-isolate. Obviously you can't get a job when you are isolating.

Think it through. This track and trace system will be in place for some time to come - possibly years.

What you're suggesting is that I close down my business permanently get a job instead, all out of fear that one day the government will tell me to self isolate for a fortnight?

My last job before I went self employed didn't pay any sick pay anyway, so I'd have been screwed then anyway (SSP doesn't even cover my portion of the rent in shared flat in a rough area of a cheap city - let alone food or utilities).

@PilatesPeach

Matt H said that if the contract tracers phone you the number will show as

0300 135 000

I have saved this is my phone.

It's very easy for scammers to spoof phone numbers. Even if that number shows up, it could be literally anyone. www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-internet/advice-for-consumers/problems/tackling-nuisance-calls-and-messages/phone-spoof-scam

ah right thanks I am too trusting!

Its a worry in this house too. If you are contacted to self isolate you should be eligible for a grant. Just telling people to stay at home and expect businesses (or no one if your self employed) to pick up the tab after all this turmoil isn’t enough.

They need to ensure it happens for public health.

I know it's still not ideal, but self-employed people who are having to self-isolate can claim ESA. That's what I've been doing - they've just extended the claim until I can legally reopen my business again.

@HeIenaDove

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/government-suggests-brits-use-holiday-22102688

"Government suggests Brits use holiday to cover self isolation due to coronavirus
People who are asked to self isolate at home under the new test and trace regime will be entitled to statutory sick pay if they can no longer work. But the official advice suggests that some people might prefer to use their holiday entitlement to cover the time at home"

Self employed people, like me, are not entitled to either sick pay or holiday, so this does not help us at all.

If the suggestion of raising SSP to £260 per week was taken on board, and self employed people were actually eligible for it, then I would be able to afford to self isolate in winter, but not in summer (I have a very, very seasonal business so I have to work my arse off all summer to cover my living expenses in winter - I need to earn >£260 per week in the summer to put food on the table in the winter).

Somehow I can't see it happening though.

Self employed people are used to powering on through illness and injury because there's no sick pay. Memorably, for me, I once ignored what turned out to be a broken limb for 24 hours until I had the time to present at A&E. Turned out the break was so bad that I had to have emergency surgery to pin it back together again. Nurses nearly read the riot act when I tried to self discharge as soon as I could stand up after the general anaesthetic wore off (I only relented because it was 11pm and I wasn't going to get much done at that time). I was straight out the door the following morning.

If we do that sort of thing to keep working out of sheer necessity, of course self employed people are going to keep working instead of self isolating out of sheer necessity.

Many SE have fallen through the gaps, I went self-employed part of the way through the 2018/19 tax year so have received buttons, 2019-20 tax year was doing ok but not enough to cover months of no income which came unexpectedly and in a sector that is still closed down until 4th July earliest and with no way or knowing how much work I can pick up when it does open - it may open later, it may be that there is no enough work to go round even when it does so mounting overdrafts & debts still cannot be paid off. UC is not a liveable amount. SSP not applicable to SE. There also seems to be a misconception from some non-SE that the SE are earning tons and have gone SE to diddle their tax etc, not all SE are earning enough to even pay tax and some are SE because the work they do is not offered on an employed basis. Good luck to everyone who is struggling.

@amijustparanoidorjuststoned

I know it's still not ideal, but self-employed people who are having to self-isolate can claim ESA. That's what I've been doing - they've just extended the claim until I can legally reopen my business again.

How on earth are you surviving off £74.35 per week?!?!

My portion of the rent, on a shared flat in a rough part of a relatively cheap city, is £100 per week.

On top of that, I have to pay council tax, water, electricity, gas, broadband, food and all the other basics. £74.35 simply isn't survivable, and I don't know how the government expects anyone to survive on it.