AIBU to be so, so angry (sorry, another Dominic Cummings thread)

[ItHappenedOneDay]

I'm so sorry...this has been done to death and my post is quite long. But the latest development just makes me furious all over again.

An amendment today to the Health Protection Regulations mean that relatives are no longer 'childcare': www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-laws-dominic-cummings-lockdown-childcare-relatives-a9542381.html

Therefore, if you are are worried you will be unable to care for your children due to illness, it is no longer legal (if it ever was) to travel to seek help from family as Cummings did.

I must admit, I thought the (very small) silver lining to the whole sorry affair was that it apparently would be ok for my husband and I to call in relatives to help with our toddler should we become seriously ill...Before this, we had assumed that we would have to soldier on and, if hospitalised/too ill to cope, call social services. However, the Government has now changed the law to clarify that family are no longer allowed.

I could cope with this on the basis of the greater good/preventing transmission, were it not for statements by the PM/senior Conservatives defending (and practically praising) Cummings for his actions.

To remind you of a few:

• Boris - Cummings acted 'responsibly and legally and with integrity' and followed 'the instinct of every father and every parent'.
• Gove - 'What's clear is that he didn't break the law, he didn't break the rules, he sought to protect his family'.
• Shapps - 'In moments of crisis, we seek to have our family around us' and 'I think it was a straightforward arrangement which meant they stayed in the same place and prevented the possibility of the child not having support around him'.

However, none of us are permitted to act in this 'responsible' and wholly commendable way, since family childcare is now excluded. Of course the new law cannot be applied retrospectively to Cummings, who continues scot-free. So for ordinary people, the message is:

"Do as we say, not as we do, otherwise we'll arrest you. Your children don't matter like ours do and don't require the same protection and support."

I don't normally get this wound up about politics but they should all be deeply, deeply ashamed. Bunch of weasels. I hope their words come back to choke them.

Please remember when the election comes. It's a long time away.

Are we now all going to be hit with fines? Although tbf the fine is still probably cheaper than paying for childcare I guess.

I'd ignore it to be honest and just carry on as you are.

It’s a disgraceful abuse of political power.
We have a corrupt government that wants to use Coronavirus ineptitude to hide a no deal Brexit.
They don’t even report the number of deaths with any degree of accuracy. They say 111 or thereabouts yesterday when the figures were more like 480. It was so they could appease the great unwashed and let them out to play. It’s eugenics.

A local relative is a key worker and I have been looking after their child once a week while they work, for the last month or so, and was considering upping it (complicated childcare arrangements).

Before I suggested having them I looked into it, and although obviously the information about not mixing households was in place, any exclusions for providing childcare were pretty vague. I can't remember exactly now and have just woken up, but I do remember reading across various websites that it should be avoided by people in vulnerable categories and that was about it. Children were also able to move households to visit their father (which is the part of childcare I was replacing).

It left me with the impression that, on balance, it would be ok in some situations. Throughout the last few months I have taken the rules and guidance seriously. And if I'd had the impression it wasn't ok I wouldn't have done it. Now I don't know what to think. Was it an oversight? Am I now breaking a law? Have they put this in place to stop people doing what dc did? Doesn't that mean it was the wrong thing to do at the time. So fed up of the hypocrisy and gaslighting and 'one rule for us...'

They must think we are really, really thick. This amendment simply wasn’t needed.

The wording of the original legislation was clear. “To access critical PUBLIC services, including childcare”.

Public is the key word here. It means childcare provided by the state, not relatives.

They’ve done this to make it LOOK like Dominic Cummings acted within the law - but he never did. He clearly, clearly broke it.

If this was another country, people would be out doing (socially-distanced) protests outside no 10. But we’re British and so this is how they get away with it.

“Move on.....”

The hypocrisy is astonishing but it doesn’t surprise me.

Remember when BJ tried to prorogue Parliament? The High Court went against him? Never mind, “move on,” throw the dimwits a slogan about “Get Brexit Done” and get a landslide victory in December.

This lot could pretty much do anything. People are literally frothing at the mouth to defend them. Sometimes, when you watch them talking, it has the hallmarks of a kind of cult.

It hasn't been buried it was explained in the Daily Briefings.

It's moved the law in-line with all of our other laws. Our laws are based on what we CANNOT do, not what we can do. The previous laws on this were what we 'can' do, this is now about what we cannot do.

It's been 'against the rules' from the beginning to be in other people's houses, whether that was for childcare or sex.

As Lockdown eases (far too soon) they're having to e explain more of the detail because it's (stupidly- too soon!) no longer 'STAY HOME' - except for xyz.

Nothing has actually changed, they're just having to explain the 'rules' more clearly because people are taking a mile, now they've been given an inch.

Childcare - it's difficult because transmission outside of hospital is mainly within the family, so they want to break those chains - but they need to accept people don't have many options. They've allowed nursery's to open and childminders (but only one family - which is mad as they've opened schools to more children. Childminders should be able to have their 'bubble' like schools) and people should be able to choose family as their childminder with a strong caution to limit any other possible transmission chains, but that's difficult if Grandad is minding the kids and Grandma is still working.

STAY HOME was a much better message and should have continued for one more set of 3 weeks to drastically reduce the the infection rate. Then these things would have been less problematic.

So many mistakes/bad decisions along the way, and now with the DC thing they've really lost the trust of so many, but what we HAVE to remember is that irrespective of the rules it's the VIRUS killing people and it's infectious, so WE have to limit its ability to transmit! Getting hung up on 'if DC can, I can' doesn't stop the transmission

They’ve done this to make it LOOK like Dominic Cummings acted within the law
No it’s exactly the opposite. They’ve changed the law so what he did is definitely illegal now and nobody else can do it. But it’s ok for him to have done it?

Only yesterday I received a reply from my MP, long and waffly, keeping to the PM's line that DC did not break the rules.

I have now replied, including quotes from the new law/wording, and asked him if he would now agree that DC broke at least the spirit of the law, since it has now had to be spelt out.

I don't expect him to capitulate really, but would like to make shrugging it off as awkward as possible for him.

At the beginning of this scandal, when the press were still being allowed to ask questions about it, many asked 'so is it now ok for people to travel across the country to relatives for childcare reasons?' This question was always sidestepped, never answered. I guess this legislation answers the question without an MP having to say it and take the fallout!

This is disgusting OP

The majority follow the spirit of the rules regardless of being angry at DC and the government.

It just serves to criminalise people who will be in most cases key workers and those forced back to work under this government’s lockdown easing ie the poorer people in our society.
(I thought we’d stopped stealing children from ‘inferior’ people?)

I hope DC exposing the contempt the government has for its people has milant-ised many more.

@Rhodri totally disagree. It was clearly illegal from the off. But I am a lawyer to be fair: perhaps those who aren’t wouldn’t imbue the word “public” In the original drafting with such significance.

But I don’t know anyone who did think that section was a “reasonable excuse” that would have allowed them lawfully to do anything like what Dominic Cummings did. The overarching “Stay Home” public messaging saw to that.

P is unable to return to the place where P lives, because—
(i) it is not safe for P to live there,
(ii) P may not lawfully travel there, or is required by law to stay in another place,
or
(iii) the place where P is living is not available to P for any other reason.

These are some other reasons when you can stay the night somewhere else under the legislation. P simply stands for 'person'.

I think if both parents/single parent is so ill that they can't look after their child, then the home is obviously not a safe place to be, so the child can legally stay overnight somewhere else.

I don't think the legislation allows for children to routinely go to a relative's each day for 'childcare' as they would for a childminder (which I think is allowed), but then that has never been the case.

@ohfourfoxache same here. I have 8 neices and nephews and if their parents were too ill to look after them I'd be taking unpaid time from work and they would be coming with me.. All 8 at once if need be. No chance they would be going through the stress of social services taking them. How is any parent supposed to get better worrying about their kids. I'd take them all in a heartbeat. Fuck the government

YABU What you are, in effect, say is that at a time when you are life-threateningly ill (which is the only point w cv that youd need child care) youd risk giving that life threatening illness to your parents.

It's pretty rare for all adult members of a household to be incapacitated by COVID but if they are then their are NHS units that will take your children (who will almost certainly be infected as they've been stuck in a house with 2 highly infectious adults for a week).

DC was an arsehole. Dont be upset that the government is taking away your right to be an arsehole too. (Would you want them to make it legal for people to check their eyesight by taking a drive?)

It was clearly illegal from the off
Oh I agree. But they’ve changed the law to rule it out even more clearly. Thus basically admitting that it was wrong, even though their mouths are saying the opposite.

As ive said on other threads its not DC being a twat ive got a big issue with

Its the governments support of his twattedness, instinct, what any parent would do, common sense, good father, not against the law, within the rules etc

Loads of people said it was against the rules, were told that this action in particular was within the rules and now it turns out that its against the rules (which people said in the first bloody place)

What rhodi said

But shorter and better than me

DC was an arsehole. Dont be upset that the government is taking away your right to be an arsehole too. (Would you want them to make it legal for people to check their eyesight by taking a drive?)

Sorry to be prickly, but YABU not to understand why I am/we are so upset. I'm not upset that the government has taken away my right to travel for childcare (or be an 'arsehole', as you put it). My husband and I accepted at the outset that we'd just have to try to manage as best we could. I'm upset because, having spent all of last week telling me that Dominic Cummings' actions were the actions of a concerned, protective and responsible parent, the government has now backtracked and clarified the guidance to make it clear that they are illegal.

I know people like me are annoying to keep going on about this, but I just can't get over the double-standard. I just can't accept that those responsible for providing our nation with open, honest and effective governance have sunk this low.

YABU What you are, in effect, say is that at a time when you are life-threateningly ill (which is the only point w cv that youd need child care) youd risk giving that life threatening illness to your parents.

We'd probably leave him with his aunt or uncle given the choice, because, like you, we care about our parents (all over 60 and one with medical conditions) and we are lucky to have another option. I'm not sure I'd be all that happy with leaving my 2 year old in social services care/isolated in a hospital unit without a familiar adult, although I accept in an emergency situation I probably wouldn't have a choice. Besides anything else, he really can't be left without constant supervision or he starts getting up to mischief, and I'm not sure they could provide that in a busy hospital.

@RufustheLanglovingreindeer

As ive said on other threads its not DC being a twat ive got a big issue with

Its the governments support of his twattedness, instinct, what any parent would do, common sense, good father, not against the law, within the rules etc

Loads of people said it was against the rules, were told that this action in particular was within the rules and now it turns out that its against the rules (which people said in the first bloody place)

totally agree with this.

This would be in direct conflict with The Children’s Act saying that the children should only be taken from parents when all other options and avenues have first been explored - I have no words

???

@solieltoday

If this was another country, people would be out doing (socially-distanced) protests outside no 10. But we’re British and so this is how they get away with it.

“Move on.....”

The hypocrisy is astonishing but it doesn’t surprise me.

Remember when BJ tried to prorogue Parliament? The High Court went against him? Never mind, “move on,” throw the dimwits a slogan about “Get Brexit Done” and get a landslide victory in December.

This lot could pretty much do anything. People are literally frothing at the mouth to defend them. Sometimes, when you watch them talking, it has the hallmarks of a kind of cult.

The scary thing is that we are not allowed to undertake public protest anymore, even if it’s socially distant. The new legislation forbids gatherings of more than six people outdoors.

@Porcupineinwaiting

YABU What you are, in effect, say is that at a time when you are life-threateningly ill (which is the only point w cv that youd need child care) youd risk giving that life threatening illness to your parents.

It's pretty rare for all adult members of a household to be incapacitated by COVID but if they are then their are NHS units that will take your children (who will almost certainly be infected as they've been stuck in a house with 2 highly infectious adults for a week).

DC was an arsehole. Dont be upset that the government is taking away your right to be an arsehole too. (Would you want them to make it legal for people to check their eyesight by taking a drive?)

DC said that he intended to leave his son with his teenage nieces, who are lower risk. Unless they happen to have childcare qualifications, it’s illegal to now do the same.

@WelcomeToTheNorth

There is absolutely no way in hell I’d be handing my kids to social services in this situation. I’d be giving them to family. How would they even know?

This! And I have been an absolute stickler for not bending the rules even slightly from day dot.

They (the government) are a bunch of fucking counting bastards.

I am absolutely livid with this whole shambolic handling. All the lying, deception, manipulation, rule breaking, twisting and fucking rose garden chats. Bastards.

I'm going to say it.

It's 1945, there aren't enough jobs and women are being chucked under the bus so men will be employed to avoid unemployed male unrest.

This is 100% designed to force women back into the home.

THIS IS INTENTIONAL.