AIBU - legally can they actually do this!?

[BMWL]

I work for quite a large private company.
I am contracted for 34.5 hours a week.
During this pandemic, I have been working, but have been working reduced hours - average 25-30 hours a week. But have been getting my full pay as normal.

They have now said that any hours that have not been worked by staff, will have to be paid back to the company, or employees can have their annual leave entitlements taken from them to get rid of these hours that are owed to the company.

I feel like this is a bit of a crappy thing to do, I would have preferred to been paid for the hours I've worked, than now absolutely killing my self for the rest of the year trying to work over time to make up these hours.

To put things in perspective, some employees owe 180 hours

Any help/guidance would be greatly appreciated

Talk to your union. If you aren't in one, join now for the future and use the subs money you've saved to hire a good lawyer.

OP, it sounds like the company is in dire straights and attempting to get some leave liability off the books.

For that reason and because they have treated you so poorly, I would look for another job right away. It's not a good time to look for work but you'll do better if you're looking before most others join the market.

Get legal advice

I work in payroll and we were told that in order to reduce our employees pay for working less hours or putting them on furlough, we had to write to them to give notice they are going onto short time.

I would contact ACAS OP, they can be very helpful.

Being told that your hours would be reduced alters things slightly imo.

Just asked DP (payroll manager for 30-odd years) and he says that if they've overpaid you on purpose they have no right to ask to be recompensed. If it was an error, they need to agree a repayment schedule.

As your contract says you are employed for 34 hours pw, and doesn't include anything about reducing hours AND pay at times of low demand, according to DP this is what they should be paying you for. Otherwise, you might as well be on a zero hours contract.

First thing to do is check your contract.

Are you in a union? I'm retired but was in HR for 40 years and I would recommend joining a union to everyone. Some companies don't encourage it but I always found it was a positive for both sides as I never met a union rep who fitted the stereotype we often see portrayed. So if you are in a union talk to your rep, they will be able to sort it out I'm sure.

OP it isn't possible for anyone to give yo a definitive answer as we don't have all the information, your contract, information given when hours reduced, exactly what they have said about paying it back. Union, ACAS, solicitor and get as much information together as you can.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. I wasn't expecting this many replies!

My plan on Monday is going to speak to HR/payroll and set the record straight as to what happens from here.
Myself and my DH and whole family believe it is very wrong what they are doing, but would prefer to have at least something in writing before I seek any legal advice.

Thank you all - a very knowledgable bunch!

Get together with other employees and write saying you are not satisfied and that you may strike.

*MilkTrayLimeBarrel:

The Company is not a charity. You have had lots of time off - now make it up for the sake of the company and the economy.*

The lime barrel was so disliked by the public that it was withdrawn. It must have been too sour.

OP, have a look at your house insurance and see if you have legal expenses insurance. If you do then you may be entitled to legal advice on this through that. Otherwise speak to ACAS. I'd do whichever of those you can do before you speak to HR/payroll.

@WhatWouldChristineCagneyDo 🤣🤣

I liked the lime barrel

I don't think any of this is clearcut. But that is possibly the least problem. The problem is who, or to be more precise, how many, of you are going to stop them? Even if a union will take them now (and most wouldn't help with an issue that has already arisen) "the union" is not a magic wand. The union is it's members and you will still have to do something to make the employer back down. If you aren't all prepared to do that, the company will pick you off one at a time, one way or another. And might still do so if you did make a stand. What an employer "can't do" and what an employer does anyway are different things.

It does seem wrong. You can't give something to someone, and then tell them after they've used it up that it was actually a loan. Given how wrong it seems morally, and the unapproachable management, I'd be looking at finding a new job, OP. If you might consider this, you might want to pick your battles.

But HOW was the reduced hours plan communicated? If not in writing, how did you all know to work reduced hours?

Also how have the new proposals been communicated? Are they in writing? Do they say "we told you to work reduced hours but now we want them back"?

All communication is relevant.

"If not in writing, how did you all know to work reduced hours?"

I presume by speaking? In some organisations, everything is done orally, in others there's a lot more writing.

So if the phone call said - reduced hours but full pay and then the next pay slip indeed showed that - full pay in my view that was the agreement just as if someone is hired as a track and tracer but had no work to do today they still get their £75 a day.

If instead they said fewer hours and less pay right at the start then the company might be able to get away with this.

@MilkTrayLimeBarrel

The Company is not a charity. You have had lots of time off - now make it up for the sake of the company and the economy.

"and the economy" really?!. Thankfully we still have employment rights, it's clearly not right to reduce someone's hours and pay them in full then ask for it back.

My hours were reduced (and pay) and I was told in writing.

Get some professional Legal advice and talk to an employment lawyer. They will be able to clarify things for you.

High level, without seeing your contract:

1. To force you to take holiday they have to give you twice the amount of notice than the period of holiday they are asking you to take. Doesn’t sound like they have ever told you the holiday thing, so I don’t think they can force you to backdate use your holiday. Plus there are legal requirements around minimum number of holiday days as a PP has mentioned.
2. They can’t change your terms and conditions without agreeing with you (or following a pretty formal process eg terminating your contract and reemploying you on new terms) so again just demanding you pay back the moment doesn’t sound legal.

Good luck!

Forgive me if I'm being dense but as PP asked, how did they communicate your reduced hours to all staff if not in writing? If they didn't send an email at all regarding this, did they call you from the company number and are those calls recorded? If this ever progressed to a tribunal then every single scrap of evidence would be vital.

@milktraylimebarrel employees are not charities either They don't owe their employers free work hours to get the business back on its feet. They are under no greater obligation to 'do what's right' than the companies they work for. Both parties are subject to a contract. Some notice of the reduced wages would have been at the very least courteous and at most could cost them a lot of money in the long run. If the employees had been notified that reduced hours meant reduced pay they would have had to get on with it and make do, but being informed would have helped them to budget accordingly. The way OPs company has chosen to handle things seems immoral and I hope for the employees' sake that it comes back to bite them.

“The Company is not a charity. You have had lots of time off - now make it up for the sake of the company and the economy.”

And I bet you’d say this to some poor kid in a Bangladeshi sweatshop too.

Whether it’s illegal or just a bit dodgy, the company was clearly in the wrong here for paying full wages and then changing their minds later down the line.

Plus, if all companies stopped paying workers properly to keep afloat, who would actually be in a position to buy the goods or services they provide?!

@00Sassy

OP in the UK an employee has the right to a minimum of 5.6 weeks per year off work, away from the workplace.

So for an employee who usually works 5 days per week they will need to take a minimum of 28 days per year of annual leave. It doesn’t matter if they work bank holidays or when those days are taken off but they must have that time away from work.

So let’s say you get an allowance of 30 days a year of annual leave and you usually work 5 days a week.
If your employer wanted you to work some of that annual leave (which they are retrospectively asking you to do) they could only ask you to work 2 days worth of your usual hours.

So if they are asking for more hours than that then that would be illegal.
Similarly if your annual leave is only 28 days then they can’t ask you to forfeit any of your annual leave.

But arguably, if they've only been working 70-80% of their normal hours, for upto say 9 or 10 weeks could well be as much as 245 hours owed. I know op mentioned 180. Thise hours they weren't required to work. Weren't at work. So technically I imagine that there's no breaking of taking annual leave rules. The biggest issue from the employer perspective is that for the employees to take that as annual leave they need to have given notice of the same length of time as the annual leave being taken and they haven't. So it can be assumed that this wasn't the agreement in advance. However, the staff have options, work the extra hours, take it as annual leave by choice or pay it back/ask for future pay to be reduced accordingly.

As pp have also stated, if no paper trail of the intentions to reclaim the hours, then unless their payslips state their usual hours as worked, the assumption would be lower hours on full pay.

@BMWLI would definitely speak with acas. I'd also ask for written confirmation now from hr or managers of what their proposals are so you actually know what they're now saying.