To think secondary school parents are more likely to be happy about their dc going back to school and they should have been first.

[sunshineanddaffodils]

It’s annoying for me to hear all these parents of children at primary school aren’t going to send them back. It’s their choice though and that’s that. But I don’t know anyone with a child in secondary school who’s not worried about their education and desperate for them to be back even for a day a week. God knows when the current years 7,8 and 9 will have any time in school and the educational impact on them will be far greater than primary dc. I know logistically it’s more difficult at secondary but that’s got to be sorted at some point.

• @Comefromaway that’s interesting. I know no one else with a year 10 or 12 who don’t want them back in ASAP*

A selection of comments on our local group

“I’m currently swaying towards not sending him. It’s just not worth the risk for two hours. He’s ok working from home”

“I asked mine if he was actually learning at home and he said he did well in his recent test. If they aren’t being educated as such is it worth sending them in.”

“If they aren’t going to be with their subject teachers just their form tutor they’ll probably just be completing the same work at school as they would at home with the added risk of catching the virus”

“I’m worried about his education but it sounds like revision sessions”

“No chance I’m sending mine”

“I’m getting stressed thinking about sending my daughter. I know she needs to get back into some sort of routine but is it worth it for two hours”

“Mine has SEN & has been having great support from his tutor. I’m happy with everything he’s getting at home. Not as good as being in school full time but the best in the Circumstances”

“I’m not planning on sending my Yr10 back in June. Like others have said it looks like they will be separated into small groups and will stay for 2 hours in the same room with no break/social time. Doesn’t seem worth the risk to me when they are getting work sent to them every week anyway. You’ve just got to do what you think is right for your family though.“

“ Think if they are doing okay at home keep them there and let the ones who are struggling go in. Not saying one child deserves more than or is better than the other but if it’s working why change it and causes stress

My son is not going back, for 2hrs in his tutor group, it's not even his maths or english sets let alone his chosen subject groups, so whats the point, how will he benefit from it. He's doing all his subject work at home & that's how it will stay for now.

“I’m not sure what to do. Think it will be good for helping struggling students”

“No way I’m sending my daughter back it’s too soon. She’s doing well at home & had good support from her teachers. Teachers have families too. “

Alll they need to do is deliberately go too near people or sneeze and cough on them deliberately and they would have to be sent home. (This happened in my school just before lockdown) Behaviour is a massive issue in some secondary schools. Teenagers, boys especially, know how to game the system

This is the one thing that needs sorting before we go back to school. Deliberately coughing on health professionals or the Police would not be tolerated and it shouldn't be tolerated amongst peers in schools and towards staff (which is going to happen). We should be able to exclude indefinitely when this happens and have no responsibility to continue educating any child who does this. Moreover, there should be automatic criminal charges brought against anyone who does this - a couple of high profile cases publicised through the media would be enough to stop it. We can't have a situation where staff get ill or die because some 14 year old thinks it's hilarious to cough on people and I guarentee it will happen.

For those who are naturally scared of the missed education, my DD missed four months of schooling in year 10, MFL and science were the only subjects that she needed extra input on returning to school. She is lucky to have the necessary resources at home and an older brother good at math. She did much better in her GCSE than predicted but did drop MFL. The biggest benefit was for her A levels as she was already prepared for independent learning. Whilst I understand the worry of these children falling behind there will be efforts made to catch up.

Well I’m a secondary school teacher and I think it was bizarre to start phased returns with the classes who are the most difficult to keep from touching each other, touching everything, putting things in their mouths, need constant supervision etc. etc. Upper primary might have been easier to trail. However whichever way you slice it it’s a massive headache for both phases. I’m very glad it’s not my job to try and organise it!

My friend has a PhD in an education-related area and is a teacher, he says it's not true that the impact on older children will be greater, that studies show the formative primary years have a huge effect on later learning and children who fall behind by age 6 or 7 or so are likely to never reach the level they would have done otherwise.

I'd have thought if the main reason to phase back was education then the logical place to start would have been having year 10 and year 12 back first on a part time rota in school. That way new concepts could be taught in safer environments, with blended remote learning to consolidate the new content.

Early years as an area doesn't, at least go my knowledge, have pedagogical evidence to support children sitting alone at desks. I feel utmost sympathy for early years teachers and the children as they are not returning to anything resembling school as they know it.

But the government wants younger child in school full time, and that's not because they care about education m

A lot of it is to do with public transport. Lots of secondary school pupils take public transport to school, and if you can only run buses and trains at 15% capacity it will take them ages to get to and from school.

I would love my Yr 10 to go back. She’s been doing all her work but is becoming less motivated and losing confidence as the weeks go on. Just found her in tears at her desk over a subject she finds particularly difficult.

She’s just turned fifteen and needs much more input than she is currently getting from school. Some subjects the teachers really seem to be engaging but others they are just left to their own devices. Not receiving any feedback is really detrimental if you’re struggling with a particular subject.

Yes, they should have phased them back in from the top down from Year 12 through to reception. In that order those whose education is more important go back first plus older kids can self isolate. Reception and year 1 should be going back last OF ALL. It doesn't affect their education much at this stage, they're mostly oblivious to the crisis and happy to play at home plus they can't self isolate. Crazy to send the babies back to play while our teenagers and older Primary are suffering loss of vital education and vital time with their peers.

I think the rationale is

1. childcare, get people back to work
2. primary age may get the virus but they don't get sick, so lower risk of dead kids (lets be blunt)
3. they are in one classroom per day with same teacher.

It was mentioned on here that the gov guideline accept that schools cannot social distance, and so they are planning on bubble sof 15 children and one adult, so minimise contacts with others. If that is the case, that wouldn't work in secondary.

The biggest hurdle around here to secondary is transport. Mine go on the train. Small 2 carriage train, packed full with school kids. If they insist on social distancing, only 1/3 of the kids will be able to travel.

Mine are years 7, 10 and 12.
I am not worried about year 7, enough time to catch up. The world won't end if she misses a few months.
My year 10 is working hard, and for most subjects should be ok (but she isn't doing any practical subjects eg pe
My clever year 12 is doing bugger all, and needs to be back.

Woudl I send them in?
yes, because none of us are shielding /isolating.
Would they take the train...hmmm....if back in June, I will drive them, (that's a huge job) Remains to be seen about September.

children who fall behind by age 6 or 7 or so are likely to never reach the level they would have done otherwise.

I think while this is normally true, for example where a child misses schooling due to illness of being a refugee etc. i am not certain that it will apply to a whole cohort. After all, i other places they start formal education much later than in UK and the levels are the same by end of primary.

I think as they go back, the whole group will need to re-cover basics.
the exception may be where half the class have been taught by parents and half not, so the gap between top and bottom is increased.

I personally think that for 90% of our kids, missing a few months school is really not going to make any difference in the long term.

But for some kids, eg whether SEN or whether home is unsafe it, may be life changing

It doesn't affect their education much at this stage, they're mostly oblivious to the crisis and happy to play at home plus they can't self isolate. Crazy to send the babies back to play while our teenagers and older Primary are suffering loss of vital education and vital time with their peers

It's fun how all the parents of teenagers think that the formative years of other people's children don't matter, nor the jobs of parents with younger children. I've got an older primary child and he absolutely needs school and socialisation less than his younger brothers, and is far more able to access the learning he needs online - and this issue is only magnified for young children from neglectful homes, or who have parents who don't speak English or don't have the time,.capacity or confidence to help. Teenagers should be able to access a lot of education online, and also interact better virtually with peers. Yes it's not ideal, but other teens are in the same boat.

After all, i other places they start formal education much later than in UK and the levels are the same by end of primary.

They start later, but almost all are in nursery and learn the basics there. My family live in a Scandinavian country often quoted when people talk about this. Almost all children are in nursery by 1/2, often full time, and most are writing, reading and doing basic maths before they start school. The first year is then really intensive and gets them through Reception stuff by the end of first term. Yes, there's lots of play and outdoor time which we miss - but they're not just pootling about in sandpits, and Scandinavian countries are showing the importance they place on early education by prioritising the youngest going back first.

The "needing childcare" element is a red herring. A lot of Reception or Y1 students will have either older siblings who aren't returning to primary yet, or younger siblings who cannot go back to private nursery yet.

A lot of early years is about social development rather than education. Unfortunately we have many families in this country who are not providing this social development and schools need to step in.

It's fun how all the parents of teenagers think that the formative years of other people's children don't matter

as a primary school teacher with my own teens, I can reassure you that for most children, playing at home is as educational as school for a few months. They will catch up. I would happily have a school system where no formal education was done until 6 or 7 anyway, this country is ridiculous in the way we try and formalise young children's education.

But I do agree that there are many homes where this is not the case, and that their parents jobs matter.

I think the only years I am concerned about is 10 and 12, and that is simply because they have to cover a set amount of curriculum and they have lost time. If we could just chop the exam curriculum, so they had less to cover, it would be fine too (but you can't do that).

YABU. More primary kids' parents want them back in school because: childcare. Also, teenagers are much better able to deal with online work than 5 year-olds are.
I'm a teacher and also have y7 and y10 dc and I fully support primary going back first.

I have a yr 6, and a yr 10. I was more worried (they are back at school over here now) about the yr 6 and her ability to catch up as well as her actually transitioning back into school, that is...if I'd ever get her to go back. The longer she was off, the harder it would have been.

Plus most of the high schools herin my area are compulsory laptop schools and everything is online anyway (google classroom/docs etc) for the majority of their lessons, which made learning from home easier for my yr 10.

No such luck for primary! Thankfully due to be being covid free here (known cases) school started back a couple of weeks ago.

It would appear from a few threads on here that some Secondary schools are beginning to ramp up their remote learning provision and are planning to start live lessons.

Scandinavian country often quoted when people talk about this. Almost all children are in nursery by 1/2, often full time, and most are writing, reading and doing basic maths before they start school.

there is a massive difference between informal and formal education and education.

Britain has formal education from age 4.
Most countries eg Scandinavian etc have informal education for kindergarten and nursery.

UK used to have this, playgroups and nursery/reception used to be proper play based informal curriculum. Now it is much more formal.
As a teacher who has been around for a long time, I see it as a backwards progress in the UK.

Just a simple example: In Dutch schools, in kindergarten, they do lots and lots of nursery rhymes and counting songs, stories, imaginative play, books themes, art drawing, painting, makng stuff etc. But they do veyr little pen and paper work. So, by the time the kids get to formal writing of language and maths, they have a really strong well -grounded understanding of numbers and language. They have good fine motor skills and a broad vocabulary, they are used to rhyming words, and sound patterns, they have pratical experience of space and weight and volume from playing in the sandpit etc.
That is proper informal, play based learning.
That is also exactly what happens in a home environment when the carer interacts with the child, takling, singing, playing games, cooking, counting, etc etc. It is very much easier to replicate at home that the curriculum of older kids.

But again, the concern is that it is not happening in all homes.

I understand the rationale for sending back year 6 but can't see how just having Reception and year one back particularly helps with child care. I know very few parents with DCs just in those year groups meaning one child goes back to school with another still at home. Years2-5 still need childcare surely?

If I had a young child I'd want them back in school for childcare reasons, not educational reasons. I am happy that something like BBC Bitesize and some reading practice would be good enough for a 6 year old.

I am not so happy that my son isn't falling massively behind. The anecdote above about the poster's dd dropping MFL does not fill me with confidence.

And yes you can be all superior and say your teen is working hard and doing better than they would in class. Good. Glad it works for some people. But it doesn't work for everyone.

As for travel, my son would have to go on a college bus, so not for the general public. I could take him but it's an hour's round trip and I suspect the chance of us dying in a car accident would be substantially higher than one of us dying of covid.

Yr 10 and 12 are only due to have some ‘face to face contact’ to supplement remote learning, not a return to school.

Why? Because meeting gov criteria re social distancing and staying all day with one small group of children cannot be achieved with a full return. Secondary children are in different groups according to options and change who they are in a room with, many times a day. Delivering the full curriculum every day to all of them, whilst maintaining the same groups of kids isn’t possible as they don’t take the same subjects.

It seems most might go into school a couple of times for generic chats about how they are getting on and pep talks, plus things like ucas info for yr12. They would be lucky to get more than 1 interaction with each subject teacher or possibly a subject specialist who isn’t their teacher, as each might need to be a different day.

It’s actually more complex than primary where there’s one teacher and one group of kids all day.

I wouldn't be sending my children in and they are in secondary school. All the secondary schools round here are huge and no way they could socially distance, even if they split all the year groups. At least in primary school there is a chance of distancing.
A lot of children travel by bus to school too and they can't distance on there either. Pavements around the school are narrow so can't distance there either.
I,think once secondary schools go back social distancing will go out of the window and I guess,the government want to prolong it as long as,possible.

@steppemum isn’t that the reason why free childcare provision was originally brought in for some 2 year olds in this country, because of the lack of engagement for many children within their families. This seems to be more of an issue than it is in some other European countries.