Nightingale Hospitals - winding down?

[Biscuit0110]

I can not be the only one that thinks this is a good thing!!

The reporting is really strange, almost a disappointment that we did not see rows and rows of dying people at the Nightingales. I, for one feel really relieved that we didn't need them in the end, and our NHS coped so well.

The footage coming out of China, Italy, New York and Spain was just horrendous. Patients dying on the floor, and in corridors. In the case of China on the street. That could have been us, without a back up. Many, many more lives would have been lost.

My second thought is why are they closing them so soon? We can see from the modelling that a second wave is very likely, so if it does come in the middle of the winter surely we will need them then? Particularly as even during a normal winter hospitals are often overcrowded.

Or being optimistic do we think the vaccine is quietly gaining momentum, and we may be ready for the winter with much of the public vaccinated?

They were empty because the criteria for admission was shockingly high
Yes. That should be the real focus by the media. It's a huge scandal yet one that seems to be going mostly under the radar.
Not far off 30,000 people dead in the UK. Many denied hospital treatment and dying at home or only admitted when the chances of survival are low. As for the care home situation. Shocking.

Other countries have low death rates (even when the number of cases is high). For some that's partly because of earlier and stricter lockdowns, but another very important reason is they treated patients early. Antivirals, oxygen.

Our media should be highlighting this and demanding answers about why so many in the UK were (possibly still are) being allowed to die with little attempt to save them. It should not be ignored. It's especially vital questions are asked because of the likely second wave if we have premature easing of lockdown. Remember also we're still receiving daily non essential flights with no checks or quarantine whatsoever. We don't want a repeat.

Note that many countries with much smaller economies than us choose to do all they could to save lives.

It's also worth bearing in mind, for those who want early end to lockdown, that many of the countries starting to ease their (generally stricter) lockdowns are treating earlier and using the various drugs that can help (especially when given early).

I suppose we can't magic medics out of thin air, so the staff would need to come from somewhere.

I also wonder what would have happened had the hospitals become overwhelmed with no capacity and people had died? I imagine there would be a huge backlash, rightly, and perhaps even a legal case for negligence knowing that it was always going to be a possibility.

I know I would rather have had the Nightingales there just in case, than no back up whatsoever and more deaths and suffering.

I know I would rather have had the Nightingales there just in case, than no back up whatsoever and more deaths and suffering.

But they weren't there were they if there were no staff for them? Hence lots of people dying outside hospital.

Biscuit There's arguably a case for negligence due to the failure to treat so many patients or treat them in time. Potential age, race, and sex discrimination claims too. It's disproportionately affecting men, the BAME community, and the elderly.

Questions need to be asked about this lack of staff line they've put out. Nurses have posted on many threads about being left with nothing to do, agency nurses (including those experienced in ICU) have said they're not being given shifts.

Why didn't the government ask nurses from less affected parts of the country to come to the harder hit areas? Alternatively they could've done what Germany did and transferred patients to hospitals with more capacity (and staff). Germany even took in patients from other countries like France.

The media should be asking these questions. It's an absolute scandal. We have one of the highest death rates in the world (America has more deaths but far less per million population). One of the biggest reasons for this is the failure to treat. Treat at all or treat in time.

I can’t help thinking that they were some ridiculous stunt to make the govt look prepared. They aren’t much use without the staff available to man them, and the money could’ve been better spent elsewhere on PPE and testing.

Absolutely agree. The fact that the Nightingale hospitals are not currently needed and they have never been used to capacity is an absolute triumph. I was so scared of the thought that my parents would be denied care as they are over 70 if things got so bad the hospitals were overwhelmed. Its a huge relief we didn't end up there!!

I happen to know a lot of doctors and all of them apart from respiratory and ICU doctors and described being bored and frustrated, with nothing to do as all non-covid / non A&E stuff has been cancelled. Surely it would make sense to move all ICU / rpsiratory doctors to the nightingales and allow all other medical treatments to resume as normal in our regular hospitals? Some of my friend are literally twiddling their thumbs while people are not getting cancer tests/treatment/ hip replacements etc

It was fair enough to plan for a worst case and avoid tents in hospital car parks etc. Not sure the Nightingale concept was properly worked through, since if it had been needed for thousands, where would the staff have come from?

And now we're shutting down, I hope the not-exactly hard up Emirates govt will spend their millions wisely at least, if they aren't going to do the decent thing and give it all back.

toffee my medic friends tell me that many of the deaths are due to obesity or weight related rather than not being treated in time/or at all. They would go as far as to say they can even tell as soon as the patient is wheeled into ICU which ones are going to struggle. The death rates could be linked to both smoking and weight issues in this country rather than medical negligence.

There is an ongoing investigation re: BAME and it would be prudent to wait for the results, before we leap to any conclusions.

The elderly in most cases are too frail to endure full ventilation. It would be act of cruelty to try and save a very elderly person and cause that degree of suffering for such a likely poor outcome.

I do hope this horrible episode never sinks into recrimination. It should be lesson for the future, and we should be able to learn how we can do things better for the next wave/pandemic. According to most polls the government have a lot of support.

Toni It's the very opposite of triumph. They WERE needed. Patients have been dying because of lack of treatment or treatment too late. We have one of the highest death rates in the world as a result.

ConkerGame says many HCP don't have anything to do. Partly because some areas are less affected by Covid, partly because non urgent non Covid work had to be postponed to avoid a potential Covid spread (it takes just one infected person go do that).

We need to ask why these HCPs weren't transferred to the hard hit areas so that patients were given the (early) treatment they needed. Or why those patients weren't transferred to other parts of the country (as they were in Germany).

toffee additionally we are very far down the list when we are comparing death rates versus overall population. Belgium sadly takes the crown. We also have to consider reporting and variations. Authorities were overwhelmed in Italy and Spain and many of those that died at home from CoVid were not logged anywhere.
It is premature, as really we are still at the beginning to guess where we are comparatively, particularly as the second wave has not arrived yet. So many factors need consideration before any kind of comparison is made. China's numbers now seem beyond ridiculous and who can take them seriously?! The next cover up will be in Russia, so how can we rely on these stats?
The truth is that we can only assess how we as a country managed, where we succeeded and what area needs improvement.

I also wonder what would have happened had the hospitals become overwhelmed with no capacity and people had died?

Umm people have died. About 40,000 people. Many of those were frontline staff denied PPE.

We have the worst record on this in Europe.

Germany, like us, has relatively high levels of obesity. They treated their patients early. With much success. That's the point. By the time a patient requires ICU it's often too late. Germany, like many other countries, treats EARLY before it gets to ICU stage.

Like I said we were (likely still are?) refusing to admit patients until a stage when survival was less likely.

'The elderly' when it comes to Covid include all those over 60. Only a small minority are frail. Many are still of working age (and include lots of HCP). In fact the age risk increases from 40.

Patients who are treated early (before ICU stage) have reasonably good chances of survival. Obese or not.

I'm surprised (and slightly worried) that your medic friends seem lacking in knowledge about Covid. They think smoking is a big risk factor? Have they not seen the growing evidence that smokers are under-represented amongst Covid patients including those seriously ill. France is trialling nicotine patches as a possible treatment.

It's a scandal we have one of the highest death rates in the world because patients aren't being treated early enough. Meanwhile as PP say we have HCPs 'twiddling their thumbs'.

you many more deaths in addition to the ones we already have, we were always going to have lots of deaths from CoVid, and had the hospitals become overwhelmed the numbers would have been far higher.

You can not make comparisons regarding deaths at this stage, and I urge you not to, it is futile until we reach the end of the pandemic and we can see the full picture.

The preparedness paradox.

I was shot down on MN when I dared to question the staffing issue when the Nightingale opened. If there beds, ventilators but not enough staff then how could they possibly make it work?

Given how many more deaths per 100,000 we have had here, I think this is the time to call this out.

What we should be asking is how many fewer deaths would there have been if there had proper PPE available, people entering this country had been quarantined and there had been adequate testing and tracking.

Biscuit It's pretty basic common sense for any illness that early treatment is best. Our own UK doctors agree with their counterparts abroad on this.

We have many patients dying at home or in hospital after being admitted too late. We also, according to posters here, have HCPs twiddling their thumbs doing nothing. Questions need to be asked of the government.

Why are these thumb twiddling HCP not sent to the hard hit areas to provide much needed early treatment? Why are patients from hard hit areas not being transferred to the thumb twiddling areas?

Something's not right. Patients dying because hospitals won't admit them but HCP are twiddling their thumbs with nothing to do?

To echo what PP have said, once it became clear that any patients transferred there had to come with their own staff & in some cases equipment it was quite obvious that were not going to be used

In the meantime thousands of ppl in care homes & the community have died.

I do think having one or two in key places was a good idea but the government kept on opening theM even when it was becoming clear they were not going to be utilised because the model didn’t work without proper staffing

I agree YouTheCat

Now is absolutely the time to call it out.

Not least because doing so might just prevent the same happening in any second wave. It's also very likely still going on and needs to change. As PP say some HCP are twiddling their thumbs whilst patients are dying due to lack of early treatment.

Approx 50% of ICU covid patients suffer from kidney failure. Heart failure is also a common side effect of serious COVID cases. Unless the Nightingale hospitals are set up to deal with these alongside respiratory support, sending patients to them will be clinically negligent.

toffee with respect Toffee, I don't know how qualified you are or if you know anything about medicine at all. My friends are in the ICU departments right now, at this very second - doing emergency shifts, and the pattern of obesity/weight problems emerged very quickly among the younger more seriously ill patients.

Germany does not have the same levels of obesity as the US or UK. Obesity levels in the UK currently run at 26.9% versus Germany at 23.6%. The US has a level that is currently at a mind boggling 38.2%.

The idea that we are the same is incorrect.

I have no idea why you think smoking is not affecting patients with CoVid. It is a well known fact many smokers have lung disease and damaged lung function. Don't take my word for it, look at the link yourself from WHO. You should check your facts, it is not helpful spreading misinformation:

www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/q-a-on-smoking-and-COVID-19#

My friend works in NHS staffing and she says they just weren't fit for the purpose they were intended, so noone was sent to them. All the reasons people have mentioned about staffing issues, comorbidities etc.

This is not about obesity. This is about the utter failure of our government to deal with this crisis.