Riddle me this - vaccine related

[MayDayHelp]

I am not a virologist or medically trained in any kid of way, but I’m genuinely confused and hoping someone more knowledgeable can clear it up for me.

Apparently there is no evidence that having had the virus gives you any immunity to it. As vaccines essentially give you a small dose of the virus so that your body creates antibodies, how will this work if the virus itself doesn’t create antibodies in people that have had it?

Following as I have also thought this (not an anti vaxxer btw)

I thought scientists were now of the view that you can only get it once?

In the first place, remember that no evidence means exactly that: we don’t (yet) have evidence. That doesn’t mean the premise is untrue, It just means that there is not evidence to support it (yet or ever).

However, your premise is incorrect. A person who has fought off this virus, just like any other, does indeed have antibodies. What we don’t (yet) have evidence for is how long the antibodies last; i.e. can you get covid twice?

If you get a cold, you will create antibodies, and those antibodies will protect you for some (limited) period of time. You can catch cold, give it to your partner, but he is unlikely to give it immediately back to you, unless you are significantly immuno comprimised. That’s because you have antibodies to it. However, the common cold virus (which btw is a type of corona virus) mutates rapidly, and the next time you encounter it, perhaps a month or so later, it may be a slightly different version - different enough that the antibodies your body has created don’t work against this new version (think of it as two puzzle pieces - they can be very similar, but they need to be exact or else they will not be able to attach to the virus and neutralise it).

Similarly, the flu virus has to be re-created each year, to try to max the type of flu that is circulating. (Other viruses are more stable, and immunity can be life long.)

Any vaccine created against this virus will obviously have to be tested to see if

• it is safe,
• it prompts the body to produce antibodies,
• the antibodies last long enough to give you sustained immunity, and
• the virus is stable enough to make it practicable to produce a vaccine.

We don’t know the answers to this yet. Researchers are collecting the evidence.

sorry meant the Flu vaccine has to be recreated each year to match the version of the virus that is circulating...

It does create antibodies - hence the antibody tests that are being created to identify those who have had the virus and recovered. What's not known is whether it gives people
Immunity or for how long.

The cases (i think it was In South Korea) of people contracting it twice have been found to be caused by defective tests. So false readings.

Although there's no evidence that antibodies give immunity, there's also no evidence that they don't.

When they say that we don't build immunity, they mean long term. They think immunity could last a year, which would fit into other flu and the flu vaccine.

We aren't necessarily getting an amount of Covid, they are using chimpanzee adenovirus, which they use in the Elboa vaccine. Which would give the same response of antibodies.

Until a scientist proves something they don't like to commit. They don't want people taking risks thinking that they are immune, so are repeating that we don't become immune. That's what was said in one of the interviews, anyway.

I think they are hoping that the vaccine will produce a better immune response, but it may well be needed ever year or two.

Some research suggests there is a correlation between severity of illness (and thus, possibly viral load) and the antibody count. It could be that people with mild cases don’t produce enough antibodies to be detected using the existing tests, or that different antibodies are in play. Either way, a vaccine would need to be ‘strong’ enough to illicit the formation of sufficient antibodies for immunity.

Also, many of the current potential vaccines don’t work in the traditional low dose / antibody formation way. Instead, they contain a particular mRNA sequence that tells your own cells to produce viral antigens which then stimulate an immune response to produce the antibodies.

Thanks for replies. Bearing in mind the virus has already mutated a few times (is it three at the moment?) and they’re saying it may take 18 months to develop/trial a vaccine, won’t the vaccine be completely outdated by the time it’s released?

Not every virus gives immunity (cold virus) not every virus reliably produces measurable amounts of anti bodies (HPV) , not every virus is easily preventable with a vaccine (HIV) , not every virus is treatable with effective drug therapies (MERS)

Most are tricky little beasts . The best we can hope for is

It doesn't mutate.

It does confer some strength and length of immunity .

We do find an effective, cheap and easily transportable vaccine.

Failing all that we do find a range of new or existing ( and easily produced, cheap and transportable) drugs that alone or in combination combat the virus and make it treatable.

sorry meant the Flu vaccine has to be recreated each year to match the version of the virus that is circulating...

But don't we have a sort of "toolkit" for flu vaccines, so it's a case of just sequence for this years model. drop it into the process and get the vaccine at the other end ?

We don't have any such framework for C-19 which is part of the puzzle ?

Thank you :)

It may be that we need to have a yearly vaccine for this like the flu shot.

We have had good success with virus control in the past, smallpox for example is eradicated, polio and measles could be eradicated if the vaccines were world wide (frustratingly close with polio ) , even the Ebola virus has a vaccine which seems to be very effective. Until we have a covid vaccine though the only effective way we have of stopping the spread is by social means, much as they did when the Ebola virus was at its height.

Right. Do immunity from a similar strain can give still give you immunity if they have similar receptors (the way that cow pox gave immunity to small pox). There is always an assumption that surviving a virus give you immunity but obviously it’s impossible to be sure until people who’ve recovered have been exposed again and shown immunity but it’s still a reasonable presupposition. The whole hooha about recoverees failing to gain immunity came from what South Korea now seems to be false positives.

Obviously a vaccine may turn out to be ineffective because it mutates too quickly (like HIV). But hopefully not. Unfortunately, due to the rise of idiots who think they know better than scientists, there is a likelihood that we’re going to be stuck with coronavirus indefinitely even if we manage to eradicate it from the west with no jab no play rules.

viques apparently the virus doesn't mutate so much that the different strains affect people who have already had it.

It's possible, in general, to have antibodies to a pathogen but not be immune to getting re-infected. However in most cases of viruses, there will be some immunity enough to stop you getting it severely.
A vaccine can stimulate the immune system differently to the virus - it can present a different part of the virus that the immune system wouldn't normally see for example. But my understanding is that if there's no naturally incurring immunity, making a vaccine is difficult.
Mutation of a virus doesn't necessarily mean that you can catch it again - it would depend what part and how much it has mutated.