'retainer' for services during lockdown

[ughseniorschool]

Looking for reasonable thoughts ... we regularly use a pet daycare service to help during the week while husband and I both work full time and have 2 busy children. The service is great - I love knowing dog is having a good day while we cant be with him. The people that work for the service are super friendly and dog seems to really like them. We pay a set amount each month - we agreed to send dog x days per week and we pay even when dog cant go because of sickness, holiday, etc. (I appreciate anyone that will say this is an indulgence - and it is. we are not wealthy but having a happy dog is very important to us so we manage the expense each month.) last month the service sent an email stating they would no longer be providing the service until further notice --- but they would be charging a 25% retainer fee to cover their costs. I am really conflicted about the fee being charged. I understand they have costs to cover - but am also not feeling great about paying indefinitely for a service that we might not use for months and we have our own expenses to manage. I love the service and want them to succeed of course ... just hard to swallow an invoice for essentially nothing.

@Carolduckingbaskin

The CMA are investigating

Based on the complaints received, the CMA has identified 3 sectors of particular concern:
• weddings and private events
• holiday accommodation
• nurseries and childcare providers

For most consumer contracts, the CMA would expect a full refund to be issued where:
• a business has cancelled a contract without providing any of the promised goods or services
• no service is provided by a business, because this is prevented by restrictions that apply during the current lockdown or
• a consumer cancels or is prevented from receiving the service, due to the restrictions that apply during the current lockdown
It also advises that businesses should not be profiting by ‘double recovering’ their money from the Government and customers.

www.gov.uk/government/news/cma-to-investigate-concerns-about-cancellation-policies

@Viviennemary my cleaner is a single mum with health problems, working for cash to keep her family fed. I'm retired on an occupational pension that's not remotely hit by the lockdown. If anything I'm spending a lot less because I can't go out for meals, to the pub, or shopping for anything other than food.
Why not help her out?

Where people are still being paid in full, I find it really, really disappointing that they wouldn’t be willing to continue to support their cleaner, dog walker etc. People who work for low rates and generally speaking get by month to month, who are often not covered in the immediate (or perhaps at all) by the government support. It’s not remotely similar to buying coffee from a multi national company like Starbucks. One of those cases where we’re all in it together, until it costs me something, and then we’re not.

Those who refuse to support these sort of people deserve to lose their spots when things get back to normal.

Of course, those who themselves have been impacted and lost wages and jobs are in a very different position, and I don’t mean them at all.

I think people still paying for all the services they’re no longer receiving are crazy.

The economic shit storm hasn’t even begun yet. Plenty of those in ‘secure’ salaried jobs now won’t be this time next year.

Personally...I feel sorry for businesses. I really do. But it’s not my responsibility to prop them up. I’ve cancelled everything possible, I’ve re-budgeting and I’m saving every penny I can. Even though I’m still working and being paid in full.

I’m not risking my families security for the sake of seeming noble.

I totally agree with above posts @Viviennemary-small self employed one man businesses are totally different to huge multi nationals. I find it morally reprehensible if people are still receiving a full salary to not support people who cannot work and can’t be furloughed. I would reconsider being friends with people who thought like that.

Our cleaner (friends daughter) said she was self-employed & presents herself as such. We pay by bank transfer and state "self employed cleaning services" on her payment. She frequently cancels on us so instead of weekly 2 hours (£26) it's more like 60% attendance rate and we only pay when she cleans. She has been cleaning for us for 2 years now. Her health is not the best and she only cleans because she doesn't think she can get any job. She doesn't think she is eligible for any benefits as her husband has a decent secure government job. I'm thinking of asking her if she would like to do some 3 or 4 hour sessions when lockdown ends. I am sure some of her existing clients have lost work or been furloughed. I don't earn much, am part-time but thankfully have a relatively safe government job for now.

I too am totally amazed people are forking out for services they no longer get. Will they be paying Starbucks for their coffees or the train companies for journeys to work they no longer make. It's mad.

Are you really comparing the likes of Starbucks with sole traders and self-employed dog walkers and cleaners?

Completely agree with Shamoo. When I told our cleaner we'd continue to pay she was very grateful and said she was going to have very little income. The twenty odd quid we send her is money we don't miss and wouldn't think twice about spending, but it'll help with a good chunk of her food shop, say.

Similarly, we don't view our relationship with DD's nursery as a purely financial/business one. They look after her five days a week and have done since she was nine months old. They are part of our family and we value them hugely. Aside from the fact that we need them to reopen as we'll still need childcare, we want them to reopen because they do so much for DD and we all miss them. Again, if we were worried about our own finances we'd have to take a different decision, but it was an easy call for us.

It's not unreasonable to ask for a retainer.
It's not unreasonable to not pay it if you're out of work, but
Then it's not unreasonable for them to then refuse to take you back afterwards.

‘Retainer’ is the wrong word. There is no guarantee the service will resume. You’d be paying for a chance to use the service if it does resume. But why wouldn’t you have a place if the business resumes? A trouble-free customer who pays on time should be the kind business owners cherish. Why would they chuck you over for an unknown quantity? They wouldn’t, unless they have a really bitter side to their personality. So essentially they’re asking for a charitable donation, which you are free to give if that’s how you want to spend your money.

A PP mentioned something about when things go back to normal. I think the general consensus by major authorities all over the world and ordinary people is that things won’t be going back to normal for a very long time. A global recession is looming, possibly worse. Many on full pay now will be out of a job in six or twelve month’s time. It’s entirely reasonable for people to shore up their finances now and stop paying for luxury services they are no longer willing or able to use.

I can understand continuing to pay cleaners and other such low-paid workers who probably don’t earn enough usually to even have a comfortable life, but many of the businesses mentioned have been operating for a number of years. The business owners have probably been describing themselves or thinking of themselves as successful businesspeople. Did they neglect to be financially prudent like everyone else is supposed to? What about savings, insurance and back up plans? Or did they enjoy all the business profits with no thoughts of unexpected rainy days? How they spend their profits is their business but expecting your clients to give charitable donations isn’t the back up plan of a serious businessperson.

@charlestonchaplin I do have various plans for a rainy day... We can survive, just, up to twelve months.

@vanillandhoney has described up thread the constraints we are now working with for dog walking. The poor dogs don't understand why they are not allowed to do their usual happy socialising with each other!

If you are still earning your full salary then I think you should pay - it's only 25% and I'm sure you want there to be a business after this is over. I'm paying my cleaner 100% of her wage to not clean. £132 a month, for no service. I don't begrudge it at all.

I'm surprised so many people on MN are paying cleaners in full. Or maybe the ones that aren't are not saying.

@MoaningMinniee are you a dog walker too?

My dog walker is still working. I thought they all were? No reason to stop. My dh (currently wfh) makes sure he’s (the dog !) in the front garden at the appropriate time, then dog walker opens the gate & puts his lead on & returns him an hour later. Sometimes she has another dog with her but she never walks more than two together. We put the dog walkers cash in a plastic sandwich bag just inside the gate. All working perfectly well for us all.

I think 25% is very fair, tbh. If it will mean they're still in business when things get back to normal, it's worth it imo.

You might be a bit stuffed if you didn't and couldn't find another business with capacity to take on your dog when you're back at work.

But why wouldn’t you have a place if the business resumes?

But the business is less likely to resume if it collapses due to no income.

My dog walker is still working. I thought they all were? No reason to stop.

Sometimes she has another dog with her but she never walks more than two together.

I don't know any walkers who are still working - there are lots of restrictions in place, for starters.

• No transporting dogs in cars unless you completely disinfect your vehicle between customers.
• No group walks (your walker should absolutely not be walking dogs from separate households at the same time - this is very clearly against DEFRA guidance)
• Social distancing must be maintained at all times. If you cannot maintain a 2m distance from the client when collecting the dog, you should not be walking that dog.
• Walker should be wearing gloves and using their own leads. They should not use their phone or touch any unnecessary surface whilst out with the dog.
• Dogs must be kept on lead.
• You should avoid touching the dogs to prevent cross-contamination.
• If you go into people's houses, you must disinfect every surface, put covers on your shoes etc.

All my clients are either WFH, furloughed or vulnerable/shielding. I cannot follow the above restrictions as I would need to go in and out of people's homes and go near clients due to the house layouts, and guarantee I can keep people safe, so I have closed, as all have all the animal-care businesses in our area.

We're still paying our cleaner her full rate because we are both still working. She is a self-employed single parent and I know that a number of her other clients aren't paying. She's a really nice lady and does a great job for us, so if we can help during this period, we're happy to.

Although my partner is furloughed and Im a sahp at the minute I'm still paying for my children's dancing,football etc and paying our cleaner the full amount even with money being tight I value these services greatly and my children would be gutted if the hobbies wouldn't open back up after lockdown .

Whilst it's all very laudable that some are still paying for services they aren't receiving, the government has put in place a furlough scheme for the self employed. They will be entitled to 80% of their profits. Employees can get the same. For those who slip through the net because they've failed to declare their income for tax purposes I have little sympathy.

It is not the role of private individuals to subsidise those out of work. That is the function of the state. Many individuals who are self employed have taken a hit on income - me and my wife included. Our cleaner is self-isolating for 12 weeks, and our dog walker doesn't come round right now, so neither are getting paid. I've never paid them when they've not come round and performed the service. We don't employ them. they are free to set their own terms and conditions and I am free to choose to continue with their cervices or not.

They will both be able to apply for furlough payments I presume, but out of a diminishing income most people really can't start paying for stuff they no longer use.

"Whilst it's all very laudable that some are still paying for services they aren't receiving, the government has put in place a furlough scheme for the self employed. They will be entitled to 80% of their profits."

How trusting of you!
It's not set up yet. And, given the wriggling they've done over the furloughing of staff, many of us are concerned it won't be anything like what was promised in March - if we're still entitled to claim it.

If you believe it's the function of the state to subsidise those struggling and out of work, you might like to take a closer look at who is actually in Government and their record to date.

All these people terrified that childcarers and dog walkers and cleaners might profit from the situation in some obscure way - while busily hoarding their salaries for themselves.

YABU.

I'm still paying my dog walker because I'm lucky enough that our family income is unchanged by COVID.

I see it as part of pulling together as a community - some of her clients will have lost all their income and not be able to pay anything. If I keep paying as before then hopefully it will balance out and she'll manage to tick over until she can start work again.

Whilst it's all very laudable that some are still paying for services they aren't receiving, the government has put in place a furlough scheme for the self employed. They will be entitled to 80% of their profits.

Only if they've been in business for a certain amount of time. And even then, they won't receive anything until June at the very earliest. What are they supposed to do until then - survive off thin air?

The help available for those who are self-employed is pitiful. I know many self-employed people who applied for UC in March and who still haven't received a penny, whereas those who are furloughed have been receiving their salary (or at least 80% of it) as expected. Most of them have had two pay days since lockdown began (end of March and end of April) whereas the SE have received not a penny in that time.

We've decided that while our own income remains unchanged we're going to continue to pay for services that we use (even though they're not running)

Most are local businesses and it feels really wrong to save money at the expense of someone else's financial security.

Obviously completely depends on your ability to pay but if you could pay in February and you're still being paid by your employer then why can't you pay now?Especially since lots of families will be saving on commuting costs and general spending now.