Why is this not national news? DNRs being forced on ASD, LD patients

[calpolatdawn]

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-somerset-52217868 www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/unprecedented-number-of-dnr-orders-for-learning-disabilities-patients/7027480.article horrendous human rights abuses and disability discrimination. Where is the outrage? where are the tv journalists grilling the evil individuals responsible here? where are the think pieces written by self titled experts? where is the reassurance for families with loved ones in care that it hasnt been slipped in? nowhere because nobody cares, im sick of the way ASD adults held in seculsions cells wasnt apparently worthy any real news coverage either, when it comes to "diversity ' the most vulnerable of us all come dead last and im sick of, AIBU?

I think we've all got to wake up and realise that the government saw this as an opportunity to get rid of the percentage of the chaff

Can you explain why you are blaming the government for decisions made by NHS clinicians?

Whenever this is raised, those responsible say they 'make the decision on a case by case basis' which basically means they are discriminating against the disabled on a case by case basis. How is this supposed to reassure anyone?!

We are overwhelmingly losing the old, the disabled and those from BAME groups. I'm not saying this is intentional, but it's certainly a coincidence that we have leaders from a party which has told us time and time again that we can't afford to help the first two groups, and that previously enacted policies like stop and search and declared the end of multiculturalism . My only puzzle is that more men than women are apparently dying, but that may be more about genetics than design.

The article was about Do Not Resuscitate orders. Not do not ventilate, do not admit to ICU or all the other ridiculous tangents that people have taken this story along.
The DNR order pretty much only applies if the person's heart stops.

As for blaming the government for decisions made entirely by the patient's doctor, that's just ridiculous.

Can I just point out that nobody "signs" a DNR apart from a doctor, and no patient is forced into "agreeing" to have one.
It's not the patient or family decision.
That said, nobody should be having one made out just because they have learning disabilities unless they have other issues that would make it futile.

I think the don,t screen us out campaign were talking about this as well. It is very concearning.

@saraclara it's not all about DNR - some people were given letters stating they were unlikely to be admitted to hospital if they were ill. I was asked (although not forced) by my GP if I would like it to be put in my medical notes not to be taken to hospital. I am not terminally ill nor particularly frail.

they are being forced in the sense that the families, carers etc aren't being consulted or particularly challenged.

That isn't what "forced" means.

ok well sneaked in, might be more accurate than forced.

It's not just people with ASD. It's all sorts people.
A friends family refused to sign her DNR so the doctor over ruled them and signed it on behalf of the family and patient.

thats horrendous Amatteroftime, what was the reasoning?

thats horrendous Amatteroftime, what was the reasoning?

I was told it's been a matter of course for ICU patients with Covid (obviously this is not first hand).

Saraclara and undertheironingboard are correct and the OP and some other doom mongers are wrong and spouting incorrect info. The only person who needs to sign a DNR is the doctor (although in consolation with other doctors). Patients can request no aggressive measures are taken but cannot insist that a doctor carries out treatment which is futile whether due to age, condition of patient.

NHS HCP here. Deciding whether or not to resuscitate a patient is a clinical decision made by a doctor. It is nothing to do with rationing care or automatically excluding people because of them having certain conditions eg LD and permission is certainly not required from the next of kin to issue one. It is considered good practice for a dr to discuss any DNAR decision with families and there wishes are often taken into consideration but ultimately the Dr is the deciding authority.

Their wishes, not there

My 40 year old brother has downs my mum was asked would she agree to a DNR for him. She refused very bluntly.

I suspect it's just because they are being talked about more now and people are thinking about it. Not exactly a DNR but I've made a living will saying that I dont want treatment if all it's going to give me is 40 years in a persistent vegetative state or unable to feed myself and care for myself. Its not binding but I hope medical professionals would take it into account.

I dont know when we got so scared to talk about the reality of illness.

People mix up DNRs with removal of all life saving care. They are not the same things and DNRs are only used when considering one specific treatment in one scenario - when the patients heart stops. If a doctor thinks that a DNR is the best option then it’s because it won’t work and will hurt and harm the patient. Inflicting trauma and broken ribs on a frail person who will go on to die anyway is not the right course of action.

how can you say it's not national news when your link is to BBC website?

People with LDs can be of all ages and may be physically as healthy as someone NT

So a DNR in such circumstances has worrying ethical implications

The HSJ article refers to allegedly illegal DNR orders this month
and mentions LDs, but not physical frailty / age

https://www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/unprecedented-number-of-dnr-orders-for-learning-disabilities-patients/7027480.article

A learning disability care provider said it has received
an “unprecedented” number of do not resuscitate forms from doctors that it believes to be illegal.

Turning Point, which provides supported living and residential care for people with learning disabilities,

has raised concerns to HSJ that it has received 13 “unlawful” do not attempt cardio-pulmonary resuscitation or do not resuscitate orders from hospital specialists and GPs since the beginning of April,
half of which came in the last week.

The provider said that, of the orders it usually receives, around 12 each year would require a legal challenge.

DNRs may be appropriate for those who are very frail or terminally ill etc
but there is no mention of whether the residents with LDs had these physical conditions

Obviously LDs alone should never be a reason for DNRs

Obviously LDs alone should never be a reason for DNRs

The problem is some clinicians don't think this is obvious

There is a thought that Covid19 is a man made (or intentionally released) virus that overwhelmingly attacks those who can’t contribute to society in a ‘useful’ way. As in build the economy. The elderly, disabled etc. It’s pretty dark.

My mother (healthy 65) has signed one completely of her own free will. She’s always been clear that she doesn’t want to be dragged back from the brink, plus well aware that there is a big infection risk for medics doing CPR on a covid patient. She doesn’t want that. She emailed Gp and he got straight back to her double checking.

As a parent of a disabled child there never is any outrage.

People see budgets not human beings. It's been like that forever. Have a disabled child is like walking into a parallel world. You cant fathom the disinterest and way they are seen as a drain o society until it happens to someone in your house.

Its criminal