Out of curiosity, if you are a healthcare worker would you want people to wear homemade masks?

[mamakoukla]

Having read through some threads here, and about differing opinions here, globally and within the scientific community - if you are a healthcare worker or work within the healthcare industry, do you support the use of homemade face coverings to reduce transmission rates of COVID-19?

This article was shared by a acquaintance who works in medical research (after deciding to retire from active medical practice) and is currently a leading researcher on containment practice (theyve done loads of interviews on tv and radio recently on the response to covid).

I personally when reading the article really felt it highlighted the responses in countries which have had a very limited impact of Covid and therefore quickly got infection and death rates down, compared to countries like Italy, the UK and USA which have had very limited interventions.

www.fast.ai/2020/04/13/masks-summary/

www.fast.ai/2020/04/20/skeptics-masks/#mightnt-people-handle-their-masks-wrong-and-make-things-worse

t.co/ZDXglZvPkN?amp=1

www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2007800?query=featured_home

masks4all.co/

The first link actually shows the difference in infection and death rates when the country has put compulsory mask wearing into practice and it's really enlightening. But it also begs the question of why the UK isnt following suit. Even if official PPE masks are not available then even home made or fabric makes have been shown to have a beneficial impact on the spread of Covid.

All links and images provided have come from retriable scientists or have been backed by well known and retriable scientists

The general public should NOT be buying and wearing PPE qns medical standard masks, they are needed for HCP but the general public should be using some form of homemade or fabric face mask/covering.

These figures where shared with me as the causal calculations of a scientist (aquiantence) based on current understanding of CV and home made face masks. They where also verified by currently well known researchers who are working on CV prevention strategies, not going to past the entire thing as it's a lot of calculations and figures

This calculation is of course a home made face mask and the assumption that 1/9th of all infections can be prevented is a guess

However, no face masks 1/2 year to go from 5,000 to 100
With face mask 3 months.

So if we dont wear face masks but have effective social distancing strategies and PPE for HCP it would take roughly 6 months (from the 17th of april) of continuous social lockdown to get to 100 new cases per day. If the public started to use homemade fabric face masks it would take approximately 3 months (from 17th april) to get to 100 new cases daily in full lockdown, but may allow some loosening of restrictions at that point.

This trend is reflected in the data from countries which have put in compulsory measures not allowing the public to leave there homes without some form of face covering (homemade facemasks, scarfs, buffs).

(Only 18 infection cycles: 5000(.8^18)=90.7= about 100)*

I'm really not sure how much more obvious the data can be, specially when its come from leading researchers and scientists in Covid prevention and management and are often retired HCP or well known in their research communities and very well respected for their work. All there work which I've included some of above (both academic papers and work which has been produced as general public friendly websites/infographs) has all been peer reviewed and debated (eg other leading researchers have looked at it and considered whether its logical/likely and makes sense and is possible, and even have potentially run the experiments themselves to confirm findings or have run the analysis and equations themselves to confirm they get the same results).

The Japanese government seem to think masks work - they’ve just sent out packs of reusable gauze face masks to every household in the country. We got ours today. Almost everyone here is wearing masks - even children (and me!). I think it does make you more likely to avoid touching your nose and mouth. However, to be really effective they have to be worn correctly so I think it’s important that if they are made compulsory, the government should issue guidelines on how to be used properly.

I will stop spamming the thread now. I just find it hugely frustrating working in research myself (nothing related to Covid of virology though, but it's how I'm aware of the research and the science behind it) that people can continue to debate whether it's worth it.

I've seen scientists try to rebuff the claims made above, and seen the science that has ultimately resulted in many of them changing their minds or the holes that are in much of the counter arguments. Such as arguing two separate things such as a PP on the first page of this thread did so.

The science undisputingly currently states that home made face masks will help to prevent and lower the rate of infection of Covid 19. It works by stopping a infected person spreading it hence "my mask protects you" and works in much the same fashion as vaccine herd immunity, if everyone wears one then it will limit the spread drastically, but it's much more effective at stopping a infected person (many people dont realise they are infected and are asymptomatic) spreading it to other people then it is at stopping a healthy person breathing it is.

As we cant monitor all the asymptomatic people it is therefore so so so important that everyone wears one for it to work.

And trust me I previously scoffed at the notion and the idea of home made masks, until the science and research was conducted, peer reviewed and shared to me via colleagues.

I also think the reason why many countries haven’t recommended them so far is that they are worried people will panic buy them and there won’t be enough for healthcare professionals. Also, I think a lot of people have misunderstood the reason for wearing masks. It’s not so the wearer avoids infection, it’s so asymptomatic people don’t spread the virus unknowingly.

Fully agree @Mencho, but I think that's why researchers are trying to highlight that for the purposes of the general public home made masks, scarfs, cycle masks, buffs, are all perfectly suitable when the Intention is to stop someone who is asymptomatic spreading it, which is why it's so important everyone uses facial covering. One of the articles I posted above (think it might be the very last link) actually explains the science behind why home made face masks actually prevent someone who is ill with/without symptoms spreading it.

Absolutely agree that with the current farce the gov have made about acquiring PPE for HCP/HCW that N95 face masks should most definately be saved for medical staff, as they do hugely limit the chances of inhaling it, but they are in environments where its medically not advisable to cover the faces of those being treated and where the virus is being converted into aerosol form through ventilation etc.

But the general public would hugely benefit if everyone started wearing fabric face coverings of some kind. Many if the countries who have made it a legal necessity to leave the house, have found it's not impacted PPE levels as they have encouraged fabric home made masks and people have made them/improvised themselves over buying medical ones.

I can sew and have a sewing machine, so I could make my own.
If I didn't I would have to buy them.
I do worry about depleting PPE stocks desperately needed in healthcare/ social care settings.
I guess the market would respond, but I wouldn't want to see general public in surgical masks or FFP3s/ FFP2s and I think that would be inevitable.

@Stompythedinosaur this is what I read and although a bit heavy going for a non scientist like me I think I understood it! I don't have any axe to grind about COVID-19 but for me this makes sense. Obviously health workers need to wear appropriate PPE.

One of the final paragraphs says:
"The available evidence suggests that near-universal adop- tion of non-medical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures could successfully reduce effective-R to below 1.0, thereby stopping community spread. Economic analysis suggests that the impact of mask wearing could be thousands of US dollars saved per person per mask "

I don't really get the point that you might contaminate yourself taking it off wrongly - surely in that situation without the mask you would definitely have been exposed. I also think it is very telling when people say they don't work because they just stop you spreading the virus if you already have it!! Hello! That is evidence they work then. Very selfish to suggest you should only wear it to help yourself. If everyone thought like this we'd have no hope of stopping it.

Masks are being recommended by some European governments as lockdown measures are starting to be relaxed

e.g. I live in Germany and masks are recommended when going into shops etc

In a few areas of the country, mask wearing is compulsory outside
(we have a federal system, where the Parliaments of the 16 German states can decide some things locally)

The authorities say homemade masks are OK if you can't buy disposables

In still working. I wear a face mask and practice very good hand hygiene, alongside social distancing. I'm not in the habit of touching my face much but the face mask makes me automatically not touch, I think. I'm not prepared to stop wearing face mask, it makes me feel safer. Also reminds others that Im social distancing, some of my colleagues seem to forget it's a rule at work for our own good.

I'd support the use of non mediacal face masks by people in public to help reduce the spread, even if you don't know you have it you can spread it without knowing, so if it slows the spread it helps.
If everyone had them it would be better. Just a few people using them doesn't really help much.
Other countries are insisting that masks are worn outside of home by everyone.

mediacal? = Medical I am a nurse.

@mamakoukla....Cloth masks don't really protect and you can't steralize.

Cloth masks don't really protect and you can't steralize.

You can if it's 100% cotton. That's why they should be made from 100% cotton. So they can be boiled.

Why do you need to boil them? Detergent kills the virus anyway.

Everyone I know boils them. It's reportedly the easiest and safest way. People don't usually want to run washing machine for few face masks. My mum lives by herself. She has about hundred by now😂, but still wouldn't fill up washing machine weekly. It takes few minutes to boil.

If they have elastic for the ear bands they will eventually be damaged if you machine wash, if you boil they should last longer, plus it's much quicker, 5 mins vs a wash cycle. I don't really get why some people are so against them, they are worn to protect others, because yes, homemade won't offer the protection of a medical mask; but it still makes a notable difference. If the government were to recommend them they could put out information on how to put them on, wear them etc, and the important of maintaining social distancing measures alongside one. As they haven't, people don't really know how to use them effectively.

My mum also had Easter themed ones made from Easter themed cloth😂
I kid you not, there were competitions in national newspapers about the best and coolest face mask!😂

Arguments against wearing masks tend to be weak.
There is evidence that they help to slow down spread.
No one should be buying medical grade masks, and it’s odd that this is used as a reason to not use them.
Correct use can be taught.
Other threads have highlighted how many people will make excuses to not wear them. I don’t tolerate things on my face well, but I’m prepared to do so for the hour it takes to do a shop. If I genuinely couldn’t then I’d be asking someone else to shop for me.

Similar to some other comments

Firstly people think they are more effective then they are. ive seen lots of posts that are like "thank god these masks have arrived, my 80 year old mother can finally go shopping". I do think people feel over protected in them and go out/become lax. Just cos you have a seatbelt doesnt mean you can go 100 mph.

Secondly the masks dont work how people think they do. Most of the time wearing a mask is safer than not, (unless you then go out more as above) however people dont seem to have any idea of the effectiveness or how long they should be wearing. A surgical masl might only have a 15 min life span, but encourage people to feel safer out for longer. home made masks have a life span, and are much less effective than people think. They are also much less likely to provide a good fit, and encourage bad mask wearing habits

Ive had some angry reactions to trying to explain the level of protections masks provide. Research had been done in to this.

Other than encouraging risk taking (such as going out more, for for example encouraging you to wash your hands less), theres other ways a mask can be more dangerous than not wearing one. They make people touch their face, seriously like all the time!

Genuinely when at supermarket and watch people in ppe. Ive seen people pull masks off with gloves on to speak on mobiles, constantly adjust them etc. Anecdotally as well they seem to be closer to others than those arent in ppe.

I'm a care worker and my company has provided us with home made masks as they can't source enough disposable masks. I'm aware they won't protect me from coronavirus but if it helps stop me unintentionally spreading it to my vunerable customers then I'm happy to wear one.

I'm not sure how helpful statistics are on there own, without taking into account human behaviours.

Countries that have imposed mask wearing tend to be where it is already popular when unwell.

In this country imposing mask wearing would mean panic buying of PPE which could limit the already stretched availability of the NHS and care services who need these masks.
You can garuntee if mask wearing is made a legal requirement a good percentage of the population will call for the masks to be provided.

Without correct hand hygiene and donning and doffing people are likely to infect themselves from the masks.

In my local supermarket there seems to be a degree of invincibility with quite a lot of mask and glove wearers, when I've had to remind people of the 2m distance it seems to be a higher proportion of mask wearers who break the rules.

I don't think it's feasible or sensible to force mask wearing.

To sum up: The point is they help to prevent the wearer inadvertently spreading it ( assuming they are still symptom free) and reminds wearer not to touch face and others to keep their distance. People in care settings medical and residential should be issued with appropriate medical grade PPE

My husband was coming home on an empty bus yesterday (we have to use buses, no car and our jobs are too far away to walk) and a bloke with a mask got on and sat right behind him. My husband asked him to move. He refused, saying his mask protected him. My husband moved away from him instead.

I cover my mouth and nose with a bandana on public transport and in shops but I have a terrible face-touching habit...I want to stop my hands touching my face then touching communal surfaces. On getting home I put the scarf straight in the washing machine, and I wash my handstand face thoroughly. I wash the bandana scarves on a hot wash. Probably not very effective but it puts my mind at ease (past history of anxious behaviour).