To ask how modern communism is supposed to work?

[CurrentBun1981]

I was randomly thinking about this today and realised that, whilst I understand the very basic principles (stereotypes?) of communism, I don't really understand much about how it really should work when implemented 'properly' (if this has ever happened).

Googling it seems to bring up a lot of heavy theory or alternatively just wishy washy Reddit discussions. I'm assuming that young intellectuals/students who advocate for it don't want a Chinese style 'democracy', so how would modern communism work in theory?

I've read that leaders are supposed to take up key (temporary) positions in running of the country during the transitional period but that in reality these leaders rarely relinquish their power and just become dictators as seen historically.

Aside from that, why would anybody want to do the really grim, dirty or backbreaking jobs if they didn't have to? Who would do the really high stress/high risk jobs without any financial compensation? I read a discussion on it where a poster explained that people work for three main reasons - job satisfaction, societal duty, and the need for provisions/sustenance. He said that with Communism it's never the third reason and loads of people upvoted him.

A few people questioned this and the general reply was something about community pressure making people fall in line. I think this sounds bonkers and would never work in reality, much like what I've read about anarchy and communities policing themselves.

Shut everything down and have only state approved businesses operating.

So does a surgeon get paid the same salary as a cleaner? I don't get it.

It's never worked anywhere at any time, why do you think it would work now?

I think the only places it works (if its even called communism then?) is in communes or small towns where a) everyone has chosen it b) people have a personal connection to everyone else.

I do really like the quote "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" though, but accept others value liberty/freedom more highly

Social democracy seems to work well enough in parts of Europe, I'd happily pay more tax for better public services.

I'd happily pay more tax for better public services
Camomila Coronavirus means we’re all going to pay a lot more tax, though whether it goes towards public services remains to be seen.

Op if you read about the former East Germany you’ll see that communism can be pretty grim. The population of East German which since the 2nd WW was part of the Soviet Union, fled in their millions which resulted in the Berlin Wall being built. Anyone who attempted to cross it was shot (though citizens came up with ingenious ways of leaving such as a hot air balloon and tunnelling under the wall). Family members of would be escapers or anyone found to have helped plan escape had their children taken into care.
It also had a ruthless Secret police, the Stasi and a huge network of informers.
The people were ruled by terror.

Maybe I'm confusing communism and socialism. Whichever one it was I remember watching a video of an EE guy arguing with loads of protesting students and explaining that they really shouldn't be aiming for the political setup he had in his country growing up, which caused massive poverty.

The few self described socialists I've met have tended to be the stoner/activist types. I remember a few guys on my mate's college course like this. One guy was from a really wealthy family my parents know and got baked all through school/college. He's now a fully manbunned-up barista and will happily waffle on about redistribution of wealth and taxing the elite etc given half a chance. If I get rich I certainly won't be wanting to redistribute any of my wealth to his workshy arse!

I bet he isn't willing to walk the walk as well and refuse any kind of support from his evil,capitalist family.

You need to read the Communist Manifesto by Engels and Marx.

To answer your question though, it wouldn't. Because it depends on people to work, and no matter how much people buy into an idea, most of them are selfish,they have wants and needs,they are open to corruption,they are petty etc.

You'd also need some people at the top to implement and supervise , which brings power into play. Power is addictive,power corrupts,power breeds paranoia . That's how you end up with an illiterate shoe maker as head of state (dictator).

The main problem with communism is the 'temporary' control by the leaders. It meant to be temporary until wealth and labour is redistributed, everyone works to their own abilities for the benefit of other in a massive commune like system. There is then no need for government as everyone is giving according to their ability and receiving according to their needs. In reality, there is a revolution where the ruling classes are overthrown, the wealth and means of production is taken by the leaders of the revolution with the intent of redistributing the wealth, they dont do it, most people have no means of feeding themselves apart from what they are given by the ruling party, some people dont want to live under communism and are killed. It would be a brilliant harmonious system if it worked but the wealth is never redistributed to the people in the way I tended by Marx and Engels. That is basically what I remember from my studies 25 years ago!

Social democracy seems to work well enough in parts of Europe, I'd happily pay more tax for better public services.
I agree. There was a doctor on QT that pointed out that Germany's lower death rate has a lot to do with their funding of their health service ( which is via taxation and insurance, which I dont think will ever be agreed to here' and their larger manufacturing and pharmaceutical industry, whereas we have an overdependance on China and Europe for manufacture. We've got lazy and addicted to cheap imports. I thought we'd learn this through Brexit but unfortunately we've learnt it far more brutally.

the wealth is never redistributed to the people in the way I tended by Marx and Engels

Indeed not. The high ranking members of the SED had all sorts of privileges such as foodstuffs and medical care not available to the general public.
I highly recommend the film Lives of Others for an excellent portrait of life in Communist GDR.

I think Marx had a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature. He thought the family was a form of capitalist control and that the breakdown of the nuclear family would free people to work for the good of the whole. Whereas we are basically animals and will always put our own survival and the survival of our young before others. Of course he didnt practice what he preached at home and had an unpaid maid who he used for sex

I thought the point of Marxist communism was that it was the natural, inevitable state into which society would develop, so no violent 'revolution' would be needed? Ie that protesting and incremental changes in society would naturally inspire people to want to live in a communist society? So tge reason the USSR failed was it was the revolutionaries trying to impose communism on a society which just wasn't ready for it.

IIRC there was a need for violent revolution as the bourgeoisie would not give up their privelege without it.

All living beings, including humans, have a survival instinct. At a basic level that means you'll do what it takes to get food, water and shelter. If those basic needs are difficult to meet, it makes it difficult for you to think about or do much else - survival takes over all of your cognitive ability. Once you feel confident that you can meet these needs, the survival instinct moves up a level, now it's not just about staying alive it's about improving my situation and the situation of those I care about. It's also about protecting against threats to survival from people who are outside my group, people who may jeopardise my survival in the future. So we amass more wealth and identify those who are not to be trusted. It then becomes about competition - who can gain more, who can be more secure, who can be better and do better. All of that satisfies the instinct to strive and stay alive.

If, as under communism, you say 'no matter what you do you'll only ever really get the basics and there is no way to strive, no way to improve, people, over time, literally lose the will to live. Life loses meaning. There is no motivation to do anything beyond just turn up. It goes entirely against human nature.

The vast majority of people who wang on about redistribution of wealth, IME, have no interest in being the same as everyone else. Their attitude is motivated by bitterness and jealousy - they don't like seeing other people doing 'better' that they are (as they perceive it) and want those people brought down, not because they want everyone on the same level but because they feel their chance to compete will be greater.

Socialism has many forms but the most sensible, IMO, is the form that allows for a balance between competition and support - ie do what you can to improve yourself, but should the world go against you we will keep you comfortably afloat (ie not just on a dinghy) until you can do it yourself again.

Competition is the distraction we need from our mortality. It lets us believe our lives have meaning. Take it away and we feel we are pointless.

Social democracy seems to work well enough in parts of Europe, I'd happily pay more tax for better public services.

People trot this out quite a lot and ignore small issues like their healthcare is a heavier mix of Private and Public.

People always just want to take the good bits from different countries without realising the century we are in, out place in the globalised economy etc etc.

I'm a socialist but I'm not a communist... however there are lots of different ideas regarding communism.. you will get loads of theory when you google it because people who identify as communists do not all agree! And of course different countries would function differently..
Personally I feel any essential services should be state run not for profit... transport, education,prisons, schools, healthcare, water and electric... and I think there should be much higher government involvement with how private businesses are allowed to operate so that they do not exploit staff...
I basically think the governments should be doing it's best to ensure everyones basic needs are met so that no one is left behind.. that children should all be given an equal start in life... so that if people do get ahead in life it is through their own hard work and personal merit rather than an accident of birth... and that no one can get far ahead by exploiting anyone else or due to some people living in abject poverty...
I'm aware that's an ideal but I think it's good to have something to aim for.
I'm not a communist I dont think there should be a violent revolution... I think these things are sensible and could be integrated gradually.. and i think there should be some private business i just think it should be heavily regulated by the government
And i agree that if peoples basic needs are met that doesnt mean they wont want to work.. quite the opposite.. if you educate people properly they will take joy from their work.. even jobs youd classify as menial.. if these things arent for profit you wont see the same type of grueling work atmosphere you often do in these big chains.. the working day could be shorter for example... you know I'd happily stack shelves in a shop or pick fruit if I wasnt doing it 12 hours a day till my hands bled with some dickhead shouting at me.. I'd happily clean an office if some person wasnt shouting at me giving me stress about the time i was taking or all the ways i had to cut corners to maximise profits.. these things arent actually awful to do it's the way you are forced to do them currently that's awful

Brilliant post @TheDailyCarbuncle

Communism requires the state* to control the means of production, supply and exchange.

So in the USSR, for example, the state would plan how many factories and railways to build, and how and what would be paid for what the factories made.

European social democracy relies on the free market generating taxes to pay for state involvement in certain things and it's not the same at all. In fact, the closest example to a communist-style central planning is the UK NHS.

*I think the term Marx used was "the people" but he never said precisely what that means, resulting in many angry student rows since. It was the Soviets, particularly Lenin and Stalin, who made it "the state".

if you educate people properly they will take joy from their work.. even jobs youd classify as menial.. if these things arent for profit you wont see the same type of grueling work atmosphere you often do in these big chains.. the working day could be shorter for example... you know I'd happily stack shelves in a shop or pick fruit if I wasnt doing it 12 hours a day till my hands bled with some dickhead shouting at me.. I'd happily clean an office if some person wasnt shouting at me giving me stress about the time i was taking or all the ways i had to cut corners to maximise profits.. these things arent actually awful to do it's the way you are forced to do them currently that's awful.

I agree that some people have altruistic reasons for wanting to do 'difficult' jobs like social care etc. Where I struggle is picturing who wants to do dirty jobs like waste collection etc, or who wants to be on an isolated oil rig for months at a time when they could earn the same walking two mins to the local shop and get paid the same for sitting on the till.

If money was no motivation I'd do the easiest job ever and focus on making music and writing which are my true passions.

Communism is not supposed to work, modern or otherwise, because it is so against human nature. Giving people power without checks and balances and expecting them to look out for you is stupid, not utopian. All animals are not equal and nor should they be. Equality of opportunity is all that is needed. Equality of outcome means equally shit outcomes for the majority and the high status for the minority who are are supposed to administer it.
I know it wasn’t your question OP, but I really do wonder how some people never learn from history and keep advocating for this dangerous, failed ideology. It perplexes my mind. People who rage against the western capitalist system basically want to shit in the same pot they eat from.

The essence of communism is the command economy where the state decides what to make and when. Rather than the free market where broadly supply rises to meet demand at a certain price point. Command economies generally work terribly and don’t deliver the goods people want and/ or need.

It’s naive to suggest that people would love menial jobs if “someone wasn’t shouting at them”. Reality just doesn’t bear that out.

So china and north korea are not actually communist at all. They are totalitarian dictatorships.

When i studied communism at uni the principle was great world peace style but in reality it could never ever work.

The idea is everyone takes their role in society seriously. So bus drivers drive buses bin men empty bins etc etc because its their public duty. No one gets paid because money is obsolete because you cant have someone earning more than another. Everyones homes would be the same access to education the same. All children born equal. But it relies on everyone taking a role and sticking to it.

I think communism would work fine in a pre industrial world so everyone can be farmers and eat what they grow. But the minute you throw industry into the mix you get varying levels of jobs. Add the global capitalist markets and it's impossible.

As a pp said in a little self sufficient commune it's probably okay but for a whole country it's not feasible.