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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Natures way of culling the population

229 replies

ExD1938 · 15/04/2020 15:48

Am I being unreasonable to be shocked by a neighbour's remark that this pandemic is natures was of reducing the overpopulation of the planet?
I was gobsmacked at first, then I began to wonder ................?. .

OP posts:
OmgThereAreNoPlanesAboveMeNow · 15/04/2020 20:03

@noworklifebalance I didn't say it's still the same. I just thought it may be interesting for some readers because surprising number of people think it's just in laboratoriesBlush

LilacTree1 · 15/04/2020 20:07

MrsKypp “ They were claiming a 1% 'death' rate not long ago“

You mean 1% among people diagnosed with it, right?

jasjas1973 · 15/04/2020 20:13

@MrsKypp
I wish we had German health care instead of the NHS

Its not the health services, its the political & medical decision making that is the difference.
One example would be: PHE in february decided that care home staff and clients didn't need to take any precautions inc the wearing of masks as there was very little chance anyone in a care home would be infected!!! FFS... every winter the elderly in care homes get hit very hard with Pneumonia... who the FFFF decided CV would be any different???
Another: German govt told Roche to start making many more testing kits, we did not tell our Pharma Ind to do similar.

The more i look at how Johnson et al has handled this the more i think it is deliberate policy.

PhoebesBirthMom · 15/04/2020 20:28

Out of interest

Does anyone extolling the virtues of coming out of lockdown understand how expensive that virus will be?

-Yes - we also understand how expensive lockdown is though.

What will we do with the bodies?
Have to burn them most likely?

Who will treat the sick? The rocketing numbers of COVID-19 patients and those suffering from other illnesses who will have no services because all other resources are needed to treat COVID-19 patients?
The NHS staff who are doing it at present. They won’t be able to save everyone, but then they can’t now.

How will we persuade HCP to carry on?
Pay them. Which requires money from income tax. Which in turn requires people working.

Where will the PPE come from?
Factories. Which will require people working to make them. And government money to pay for them. Which will require people returning to work.

How will vulnerable portions of our population survive when resources have been siphoned off to the (dying) NHS and the already small number of social workers etc is smaller still?
These people are also dying now. Resources will also have to be cut to these areas in an extended lockdown, too. Because the government won’t have any income to pay for them, because the income comes from taxing people’s earning and business profits.

How will we justify allowing the virus to go unchecked through socially deprived and crowded areas while the middle classes enjoy the advantages of lockdown ending? Or would we keep people living close together in lockdown as well?
These people are trapped in close proximity to each other NOW. Many low income workers are key workers living in multigenerational, cramped households. They are infecting their elders NOW, because they are not permitted to go elsewhere.
We don’t ‘justify’ allowing the virus to go unchecked. We understand that is scarcely unchecked in these areas under lockdown either.
Social deprivation is never justified, but without revenue from business, it’s not going to be possible to address it in the future, either. Addressing social deprivation costs money. Lots of it.

How would we compensate in the short and medium term for large numbers of workers who are simply unable to work/teach/childmind because they're sick, recently bereaved, widowed or deceased?
The vast majority of people are ill in the short term, if they show symptoms at all.
If we don’t allow people to return to work, the money for paying them to stay at home will run out. How will we compensate people then?

Looking at the death rate as we enter the flattening of the curve, could I remind you that this was a glimpse of what was to come, not really a 'peak' in terms of what the virus is capable of? Also, the numbers we saw would never be that manageable once we passed the point at which the NHS could offer beds? And of course that would leave many HCP working in exactly the conditions that would cause an immune response that would kill them too? Leaving many struggling to access healthcare and of course, vulnerable people unable to reach a safe space where their healthcare could be safely given (because nothing can be done that compromises the immune system while the viruse is unchecked).
Yes, the measures we have undertaken were to buy us time and to try to flatten the curve. Not to prevent cases, but to try and control the rate. There might still be further lockdown needed to do so, but after a certain point, lockdown will mean that we run out of money to pay NHS workers and buy equipment. If this happens, anyone who gets COVID badly is fucked anyway.
It has to be a judgement call between the two. And unemotional balancing of risk of death from the disease and risk of death from the breakdown of services due to underfunding.

That's not hysteria. That's just modelling.
Few of us understand the modelling. The Imperial Study was not peer reviewed and has many detractors.
There is also a definite amount of hysteria about.

ListeningQuietly · 15/04/2020 20:38

Covid is, in the big scheme of things, a very mild virus
but it has hit the rich west
so has caused a huge reaction

Things like Nipah and Malaria and Ebola and Thypoid and Cholera are MUCH more deadly
but they do not affect New York and London

MrsKypp · 15/04/2020 20:42

@LilacTree1

Presumably, but that's why I put the word in inverted commas (they didn't specify in the programme)

@jasjas1973

I completely agree with you about the massive difference in political decision, the priories being different, etc. Boris was distracted far too long by the disaster known as Brexit, and then by Carrie's pregnancy. Merkel was far more alert and seems to care more about the people in her country.

German health care has, for example:

  1. Massively more hospital beds than the NHS
  2. Massively more ICU beds
  3. Massively more EMCO beds
  4. Far more PPE
  5. Far more ventilators
  6. Far more resources
  7. Tested massively more than the UK
  8. Autonomous areas dealing with issues rather than a large monopoly that moves too slowly
  9. Almost no waiting lists
10. Quick access to specialists 11. health care free at point of whatever they call it 12. everyone is covered 13. insurance companies are NON profit 14. All pre-exisiting conditions covered at NO extra charge

etc etc

ListeningQuietly · 15/04/2020 20:43

Evidence :
Marburg killed 80% of all those infected ...
www.statista.com/statistics/1095129/worldwide-fatality-rate-of-major-virus-outbreaks-in-the-last-50-years/

MrsKypp · 15/04/2020 20:44
  • ECMO (not EMCO)

apologies for other typos. battery on laptop almost empty!

OmgThereAreNoPlanesAboveMeNow · 15/04/2020 20:54

This thread is actually fascinating. Thank you all who are putting all that information here.

PhoebesBirthMom · 15/04/2020 21:24

ListeningQuietly

It sounds awful, especially as people are dying, but I'm actually quite thankful that this pandemic is COVID rather than the likes of Ebola etc.

The next one, we might not be so lucky.

DGRossetti · 15/04/2020 21:40

The Bats Behind the Pandemic From Ebola to Covid-19, many of the deadliest
viruses to emerge in recent years have the same animal source.
By Matt Ridley, 4/9/20, Wall St. Journal [...]
Then in 2016, Ralph Baric & colleagues at UNC Chapel Hill showed that the
same bat virus could infect live mice that had been engineered to express
the human gene for the ACE2 receptor. The virus was “poised for human
emergence,” as the title of Dr. Baric’s paper put it.

[...]
There are good reasons why bats spread so many viruses. Bats are
long-lived mammals, like us, and live in large crowds, like us—ideal for
spreading respiratory infections in particular. One bat roost in Texas
houses 20 million bats at certain times of year, a concentration of
mammals paralleled only by people in cities. There are lots of different
species—one-quarter of all mammal species are bats—so they have lots of
different viruses. And they fly, carrying diseases long distances,
allowing viruses to indulge in “host-shifting” between bat species. This
especially suits viruses that can “recombine” with related strains, like
coronaviruses.

It is not yet clear why horseshoe bats, in particular, are so infested
with coronaviruses. These are average-size bats, distinguished by large,
pointed ears and weird little sonar dishes known as nose-leafs, the outer
part of which are often shaped like horseshoes. There are at least 100
species, many of which look very alike. Absent from the Americas, they are
found all over the tropics of the Old World and in some warm temperate
regions. They seem to be fond of living in caves and gathering in large
aggregations. [...]

flirtygirl · 15/04/2020 22:00

Wow those bat's sound very much like humans.

SarahTancredi · 15/04/2020 22:16

That's fascinating about the bats

If they are infested with corona viruses does that mean they just carry them or do they suffer from them?

Could answers also lie in the bats themselves?

SharonasCorona · 15/04/2020 22:21

I read that that bats are really good at fending off viruses so the virus works even harder to try and bypass the bat’s defences, which means the virus becomes a super virus on the bat, allowing it to be spread to humans more easily.

SarahTancredi · 15/04/2020 22:26

Wow..

I mean not great for us but it's interesting.

I would assume studying the bats is a given.

People used to get themselves infested with was it tape worms or hook worms ? That was supposed to help asthma?

I wonder what it is about the bats biological make up or a particular parasite they carry or what part of the way they live means they are so hard to hurt and whether that could help us if we figured out what it was

noworklifebalance · 15/04/2020 22:29

Bats also have a much higher metabolic rate and body temperature due to the energy expenditure required to fly. This enables them to carry viruses without suffering the disease.

SharonasCorona · 15/04/2020 22:35

I remember being fascinated by bats after the movie Contagion and the CV virus makes them even more fascinating.

I don’t think we know for sure why bats are so ‘zoonotic’ but lots of food theories.

SarahTancredi · 15/04/2020 22:38

They eat bugs dont they?

Same as alot of other small mammals reptiles and amphibians...

SharonasCorona · 15/04/2020 22:52

Yes, I think that's right!

MrsKypp · 15/04/2020 22:57

I used to think bats were cute. Now, not so much...

More seriously, and sorry for being dim, but when the article says:

Absent from the Americas, they are
found all over the tropics of the Old World and in some warm temperate
regions.

What do they mean by "Old World" ? All tropical areas outside the Americas? It seems a weirdly colonial way of putting it, doesn't it?

Interesting topic though!

MrsKypp · 15/04/2020 22:58

Sorry the BOLD failed in my post above

SarahTancredi · 15/04/2020 23:02

Sorry wasnt sure if the food theories applied to their food or the food humans make from them...

They are interesting creatures though. I mean even the fact they survive hanging upside down is interesting humans do not survive at certain angles for long periods with the blood not circulating properly. I mean it stands to reason that their immune systems/ resistance would be high I guess with living in dark damp caves ... the air quality stagnant water and excess of excrement would probably kill other animals. They survive everything they shouldnt really. Begs the question to really where someone would say to themselves of all the amimals to eat they would pick that...

Bats have protected status in england dont they would we be able to study them in a lab here in that way?

OmgThereAreNoPlanesAboveMeNow · 15/04/2020 23:38

@MrsKypp I just learned something new
forum.biologyonline.com/topic/old-world-vs-new-world

flirtygirl · 16/04/2020 08:55

Wow those bat's sound very much like humans.

Bats are long-lived mammals, like us, and live in large crowds, like us

they fly, carrying diseases long distances

They seem to be fond of living in and gathering in large aggregations

Warsawa31 · 16/04/2020 09:10

Nature isnt a conscious entity. It just is. There are millions of virus’s yet undiscovered - some will be way more deadly than this one. I find it comforting and ironic that for all our supposed power and control to destroy the planet - we are at the mercy of the tiniest and simplest form of life (ish).

We reproduce so fast that this global death toll doesn’t even represent half a days worth of population growth - www.worldometers.info/world-population/

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