To think that closing schools for x weeks shows that a week of term time holiday was never that damaging?

[Hollyhead]

So many teachers seem to now be saying ‘don’t stress about the work set, spend time together, learn skills’ etc. Yet it’s not so long ago that it was being touted that taking a week off was consigning children to educational destruction. AIBU to think the argument is now lost and that actually for children who otherwise have good attendance a week off at a non key point of the year makes not one jot of difference to their overall education?

I have generally found that the families that are most likely to take their children out of school for holidays are children who are already behind and/or already miss a fair amount of school and can least afford to miss more education time.

It’s not even remotely the same thing.

The children that are most likely to be disadvantaged by this lockdown are the same children that would be disadvantaged at school by a term time holiday. The children that are unlikely to be affected by a couple of weeks term time holiday are the same children that will have a lovely time during lockdown and will learn plenty.

Do you really think that the loss of school isn’t harmful for some children?

I qualified as a teacher at 50 (Secon career) and was never invited to an interview for a job, I stopped bothering/applying for jobs after 18 months. I think I failed on grounds of age and subject-- which fell off the curriculum, and because I won't move for a job, but I would be happy to help fill in gaps... I am literate, numerate AND I would like to help fill in some of the gaps. But how do I start to help?

I have volunteered to help out in schools, and have had not a single reply or even an acknowledgement that my enquiry has been read or logged. I thought schools were keen to have free outside help. I feel it is very difficult to get taken seriously, as many people in public service jobs evaluate volunteers as threatening/not threatening their jobs.

TBHonest. there's no way on earth I am going to volunteer as a shop assistant, gardener. or cleaner for the National Trust. Pay the people who need those jobs a respectable wage.

OP, you know absolutely sod all about what goes on in a classroom. s#Stop embarrassing yourself.

YANBU.

This situation has exposed many cases where ordering people around to occupy certain physical spaces to get certain things done, just isn't necessary. It fulfils certain people's emotional needs: to wield power; to be surrounded by people at times of their choosing; not to have to schedule properly but to feel their team is on standby; not risking the insecurity of change.

It's a way of life that doesn't suit everyone. Night owls, those with caring responsibilities, those living in remote areas (perhaps where they can afford, as city centres and commuting are both expensive), the disabled, those who struggle to perform well in a bustling environment - all of these people and many more categories of people are reasonlessly cut off from participating as fully as they could in various things.

School is one of the things that could be done completely differently. It would be nice if one result of this horror would be to take a more flexible attitude to all this.

Look at the UK's figures for Corona deaths: by far worse in London than anywhere else. Imagine if we had already had a system which didn't force so many people to travel in close proximity at the same times of the day. We might not be seeing numbers like that now.

Zsazsajuju. It’s not so much the teachers it’s disruptive for as every single person in the classroom.

In my earlier example, Sally missed the first week of teaching about time. So when she comes back, she needs to have that explained before she can move on to the next bit. However, the teacher has 29 other children who all heard that explanation and need to move on. So, you explain the next bit to the 29. And now someone has to sit with Sally and explain the bit she missed to her. So instead of walking round the classroom supporting the children who find the next bit challenging, or giving feedback (live feedback like this is far more effective for the children than later marking) the teacher is sitting with Sally. It’s not more work for the teacher. They are in front of the children for the same number of hours. They won’t go home any later, or give up more time at the weekend. It is harder in the sense that you now have to provide two different lessons at the same time in the same room. And they are not writing a whole lesson again, just repeating info from last week. Of course you could bring Sally in from playtime and explain then. After all, she was playing while the other kids were working, but would you really be happy with your child being kept in to catch them up? Probably not. Kids need to play. So everyone else has their lesson disrupted. And of course, Sally won’t have understood the explanation of the second part of the work because although she was in the classroom, she didn’t have the foundation to build on so she now needs that explaining separately too.
The TA could do it but in our classroom, the TA is likely, for example, to be dealing with Fred who has SEN and is trying to escape the classroom. So Sally’s holiday has a huge impact. That her parents blithely say “It had no effect on her progress” is likely to be largely down to her teacher who has prioritised her at the expense of some of the other children in the class getting the feedback, because otherwise Sally will be clueless about what is going on.

If kids take a week if it’s a massive mess for me.

I teach controlled assessment. Missing 4 lessons means that 2 or 3 topics have been covered and missed. There is is no time to catch up. There isn’t even enough time to do controlled assessment anyway. It’s a massive problem when they are absent.

They never catch up properly.

Playing catch up, as others have said, is the main problem of term time holiday. And it is usually students with existing poor attendance.
As teachers we are not saying learning doesn't matter; I for one am desperately trying to teach y10 and y12 in particular, as no-one knows what their exams will look like. Probably to the disadvantage of my reception child who has far too much tv while I try to deliver. What is being said though, is take advantage of being at home together where you can. The world is usually so manic and this situation is terrifying and dreadful, but it also offers some a moment to pause, reevaluate and spend some positive time together; the message in that respect is if you are in a position to, try to enjoy the time together, talk to your child and help them learn through general life. It is recognising that the situation is also really, really stressful and fretting about every single piece of set work is not the be all and end all. We all spend a lot of time in normal life moaning about lack.of time and lack of quality family time. As teachers we are very, very aware that for a number of children are not in positive situations (and trying our hardest to help); even a seemingly idyllic situation has its strains. It's about looking at the bigger picture. Somehow they will catch up.

Good point.
The schools are ruled by Heads and SMT who for some unfathomable reason are obsessed with attendance figures.
Attendance stats are far more important to them than GCSE results.
I don't really know why and I've been teaching more than 20 years.

It (attendance) makes fuck all difference unless it's extreme and yet they're no less still obsessed.
There's plenty of SMT on here. I'm sure you'll hear from them soon!
"It's vitally important...how can you say that /be so stupid " but in their particular own inconceivable gargon designed to distance and confuse.

The issue with term time holidays is that a child will miss a particular teaching point and be behind when they return, meaning they need extra attention from the teacher to catch up, which has an adverse effect on the rest of the class. Its not the end of the world by aby stretch of the imagination, and at the very end of term it makes little difference, but its not comparable to the current situation at all

The vast majority of teachers want the absolute best for their pupils. We see children being let down by the system all the time and we know many of them have difficult home lives and it's frustrating we're can't do everything and be everyone for all our pupils all the time.

If parents were allowed to remove their children for term-time holidays then we'd be doing our best to catch everyone up while still teaching the full curriculum. But in that example above of Sally, it's clear to me that regardless of Sally's level of attainment, in that class something would have to give while Sally is brought up to speed. There would be high achievers who wouldn't get extension work and low achievers who really need extra support just to be anywhere near their peers. And, of course, those mid achievers who just plod along, not being any trouble and understanding just enough to get by, but who could perhaps do more amazing things if they were given more individual teacher attention.

Multiply the example of Sally by 30 children, all taking one or two weeks holiday. That's easily enough to have a different child out every single week of the year.

We want the best for all our pupils, and having them together as much as possible allows us to plan most effectively, use our valuable TA time in the best way and do our damned hardest to get every child to achieve their full potential.

That's why we prefer to have everyone in class as much as possible.

Not because it's bloody "convenient".

The schools are ruled by Heads and SMT who for some unfathomable reason are obsessed with attendance figures

They are held to account by the government through the LAs. It is the government, not the schools who made attendance at school such an overwhelming focus. It is a significant aspect OFSTED inspections.

I make no argument as to its efficacy, except in cases where children are being kept out of school by parents, but it's not the fault of HTs and SMT.

I'm just glad to work where parents can do as they please in this respect, they access the lesson plans and do the work. Or not.

YABU

I think a pandemic is exceptional circumstances. I don’t think many people would seriously suggest that this will have NO impact on children’s education. It certainly is not comparable to a week off to go to on a family holiday. I’m on the fence about taking children out of school unnecessarily- I wouldn’t do it without very good reason but don’t think (as a once off) it’s the end of the world. Unless your children have poor attendance more generally in which case I think it is usually a bad idea to take more time off for a holiday. But I just don’t think schools being closed for months on end will a) have no impact on most children’s education; b)have been done on a whim; or c)be in any way comparable to a week off for a holiday- I don’t think parents will be able to cite this in support of their request for approved absence from school.

I think potentially missing a whole term will not be without some impact. The degree of that impact will vary, depending on the support each child has available at home and what the school has put in place in terms of resources.

My DC’s school has practically a whole day set up- start at 9am and running until 4pm. There will be 3 lessons per day via video call, teacher available for on-line advice for their allotted lesson time (and can be emailed out with this). Work/homework/assessment via online classroom, they have access to a language lab, teachers have created podcasts/video’s mini-lectures etc. They usually have resources on the online classroom, but have enhanced this. Music lessons carry on via Skype/FaceTime/zoom. Pastoral teachers will be available via email/1:1 if needed. I’ve been impressed how quickly this has been put together.

My brothers DC had a few sheets of paper sent home- with promise of more material to follow but no online classroom/video teaching. Parents can email teacher if something they are struggling with. What was sent home was some worksheets with no explanation of what/how they are being taught etc.

I suspect it’s because most parents at my DC’s school will be able to fund a laptop, have internet access and somewhere quiet for the children to work. They will also have a parent or someone at home who will be able to provide support (unless key worker, in which case can attend school). Unlikely every parent could provide the same at my nephew/neice’s school due to demographics.

I suspect children who are fortunate enough to have good support from home and school will find some impact on their progress, but basically be ok. I suspect some children’s academic progress will suffer significantly.

I honestly can’t believe your post.

I work with children who find learning difficult. When a child has been off for a week or two, that child will have to join my group. Pretty soon the parent will complain that their child is working with less able children. Or, I have to leave the less able children and do one to one with the previously absent child. On the odd occasion we’ve had complaints that their child has been given one to one.
The curriculum is fixed. If a child misses addition of two digit numbers, adverbial phrases, telling the time, how to read scales, or any manner of topics that are generally covered in a week then that child has a gap in their learning.

OP, even with your updated post on this topic, YABVVVVVVVVVVU. Sadly, you're not alone in thinking this, and for this reason I foresee mayhem when schools return to normal whenever that may be.
I feel sorry for teachers dealing with these daft, impractical, I'll considered theories from parents in the future. As if their jobs aren't hard enough.

PS... Service families are exempted from this.

ill* considered

I'm sick of hearing all children are in the same boat, no they are not, some are still having online private tutoring, some private schools are still doing online lessons, some children are truly advanced to their peers and some are way behind, some live with highly intelligent parents who can teach them alot and some live with average parents or those that struggle with basic homework.

I believe there are proposals to raise the fine for holidays in school time to £1000 per child per adult. Will this come to pass? who knows

YABU. As other have said, it’s the difference between having kids out at random, and everyone being off together. A better example is what happened prior to the shutdown. Our school found it increasingly difficult when more and more parents took their children out in the run up to shutdown. Classes went from 30 to 20 to 10 in the two weeks prior. Classes were disrupted and doing anything as normal was impossible. If there were a general acceptance that it was ok to take time off for holidays, there would be more than just one or two, there would be a whole load more and that’s where the problem is.

One week of missed learning is significant at any age.

DD was off school for two weeks when she had surgery in P4. They never sent home any work for her and didn’t have any issues when she returned. She missed six weeks of work when she had surgery in P5. They sent the work home in week 5, it took her two days to finish it. I’m not sure I would consider a week’s missed work as significant. I wouldn’t take her out of school for holidays, but not because of any impact on her education.

One of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. Thousands of people have died.

This is actually the most ridiculous thing I’ve read. The number of deaths is in no way relevant to the point the OP is making. Not every Covid related thread needs to point out that people are dying.

Kids of parents who are working full time at home are getting very little. Blantantly obviously you can't work full time and homeschool

I agree that not every child is in the same boat, but this is a very sweeping generalisation. Both of us are working full time, we helped DD set up a timetable, she follows it, asking us for help when she needs it. She works 9-3, we probably spend about an hour helping her over that time. We make up any time for work later in the day. By contrast, one or two of the children in her class she talks to who have a non working parent, are not doing any schooling at all. They are choosing to spend time on other things. I don’t think there is a right or wrong way to do any of this, but it is wrong to suggest the working status of parents necessarily correlates to how much schooling children are doing at the moment.

Sorry but I don’t think its disadvantaging my dds or their class taking them out for holidays especially as they are just in junior school. They are taught in small groups and still spend plenty time on play type activities. Both dd are in top group for reading and maths and are not holding anyone back- quite the opposite. Slower children are often holding them back. As I said children all learn at different speeds.

I take them out for days around religious holidays (they get the actual day off but just that so may have one day off one week then two the next). We go to visit family overseas which means they can keep in touch with their culture and learn new things. The idea time off school makes any difference to achievement in itself is not borne out by evidence. The draconian approach is harmful to families and should stop.

and are not holding anyone back- quite the opposite. Slower children are often holding them back.

What evidence do you have for this statement?

All dc who are young will be remain at different levels.
Some dc won't be learn, some will, some of dp are doing schools all day with dc, some are not, can not.

Of course dc will be at different levels going back!!